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Bush’s Cruel and Degrading PresidencyBush’s Cruel and Degrading Presidency By Mike Whitney 09/19/06 "Information Clearing House" -- -- Washington is a moral swamp. When the chief executive can stand at the presidential podium and make an unabashed appeal for torture, then the American dream is dead. Bush hates America and only God knows why? He’s been buoyed-along his entire life on a raft of wealth and privilege; distancing himself from his endless failures, one after the other…flop, flop, flop. Still, Bush wants more; another pound of flesh to inflate his battered, alcohol-saturated ego. He wants to snuff out anything that even vaguely resembles honor or decency or dignity so he can permeate the world with his own fiendish image beaming from TVs across the globe. Who could ever have imagined the President of the United States making the case for torture like some flannel-mouth medicine man at a tent show? “Where is your sense of decency, sir?” The shame that Bush has brought on this country is nearly as great as the ignominy heaped on the nation by the Republican rubber-stamp congress. The House of Representatives is the real moral swamp. Not once, in 6 years have they stood up to Bush…not once!!! Meanwhile the country has trundled off to war on a “pack of lies”, the president has authorized unlimited spying on the American people, 300,000 mostly poor, black people were ethnically cleansed in New Orleans, and countless thousands of innocent Muslims have been kept in bondage in American gulags. And don’t bother defending that phony McCain and his cadres of far-right toadies jousting with Bush on “secret evidence”. What a joke. McCain never saw a war he didn’t like. He’s chairman of the International Republican Party, a slick-sounding NGO that topples foreign governments (like Hugo Chavez) who don’t believe that every nickel of the world’s wealth should go to the upper 1%. Even his fight against “secret evidence” is pure fiction. If McCain “the maverick” wins, American-held prisoners will still not have the right to challenge their case in federal court or sue for damages in the case of unlawful arrest. McCain, Warner and Graham, have removed habeas corpus (the foundation of American jurisprudence dating back 800 years into English law) as a fundamental human right. The only rights that prisoners will have are the right to appear before 3 of Rumsfeld’s hand-picked stooges to plead for mercy. It is an utter travesty. Republicans love to lavish praise on that inveterate racist Winston “bomb the niggers” Churchill. Here’s what Churchill said about habeas corpus: “The power of the executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious, and the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist.” According to the Associated Press (AP) there are more than 14,000 of these unlucky souls in Bush’s gulags right now. That doesn’t include the tens of thousands in Iraqi concentration camps and detention facilities. Bush not only claims the right to hold them indefinitely, but wants the congress to endorse his right to torture them as he sees fit. This is the very definition of tyranny. Here’s Bush defending torture in his September 6 speech: “Captured terrorists have a unique knowledge about how terrorist networks operate…and knowledge of what plots are underway.... Our security depends on getting this kind of information. (Like the Sept PDB “Bin Laden Planning on Striking in America”?) Many Al Qaida or Taliban fighters try to conceal their identities and withhold information that could save American lives. They have received training on how to resist interrogation. And, so, the CIA used an Alternate Set of Procedures. These procedures were designed to be safe, to comply with our laws, our Constitution, and our treaty obligations. The Dept of Justice reviewed the authorized methods extensively, and determined them to be lawful.” Then why change the laws, George? No harm, no foul. Bush wants to change the law because he KNOWS the “procedures” constitute torture; a violation of the War Crimes Act and the Geneva Conventions. His petition for torture goes far beyond a sadistic urge to inflict pain on other human beings. It is a frontal assault on the fundamental principles which underscore the Bill of Rights. It is an expression of the hatred he feels for our system, our laws, and our prevailing ethos. It is a way of forcibly removing any obstacles to absolute power. The opponents of torture have mounted a flimsy, limp-wristed defense that torture produces unreliable information or that it may put our own soldiers at risk. What gibberish! That’s the spineless equivocating of lawyers not humans. We oppose torture because it is a moral evil; it makes no difference if you are religious or not. There is no lower form of human activity than inflicting pain on another person. None. Even killing someone allows them to retain some trace of dignity; torture robs them even of that. Anyone who thinks torture is “quaint” is unfit to lead; in fact, they are a cancer on society. Bush’s railing against the Geneva Conventions is the sign of a man who accepts no legal or ethical constraints on his behavior. It is a blanket defense of cruelty and an attack on our core principles as Americans. It is the language of a dictator whose sole aspiration is the expansion of his own despotic power. Bush says that the wording of Geneva is “vague,” and that “outrages against human dignity” is hard to decipher. That is because he plans to push the limits of the law by exacting as much pain as possible from his victims. Geneva is not vague. It intentionally casts a broad net to discourage ANY harsh treatment of detainees in one’s charge. Its condemnation of the “cruel, inhuman and degrading” treatment of prisoners has never been challenged because it is a clear indictment any such punishment. What is it that Bush does not understand about our laws and traditions? How can a man reach the pinnacle of power without the slightest resolve to defend even minimal standards of human decency? “Inalienable rights” have no geographic boundary; they are the province of every man. Prisoners are no less entitled to human rights than anyone else. The president’s plea to repeal the Geneva Conventions is a portentous reminder of how “absolute power corrupts absolutely” and of how quickly America has slipped into the quicksand of moral depravity. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15026.htm Bookmark/Search this post with: 
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Hmm... I never heard the
Hmm... I never heard the "torture will put our soldiers in danger". Of course it won't - that's the primary reason we never signed up for the "international tribunal on war crimes". You gotta love Dubbyah - "The Department of Justice" (by that I assume he means someone like John Asscruft) - according to Dubbyah has ruled that torture is constitutional. HAHAHA! Pity there is no god, or we'd be in for a good show. This story is working out like "Animal Farm", except that the Communists are not the main characters.
Debian and politics don't
Debian and politics don't mix. Please keep your Lenist/Marxists worldviews to yourself.
Does too
Debian and politics do mix and Mr Pinniped is the one defending freedom by speaking out against a flawed position by the bush mis-admin.
Dear ignoramus maximus
In two short sentences you managed to pack an amazing amount of stupidity and crass ignorance, made even worse by the assumptions underlying them. Calling yourself 'Defendfreedom' suggest that either poor lady freedom has run out of thinking friends or, which is far more likely, that she has no need of such defenders :-)
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux
My statement is no more
My statement is no more "stupid" or "crass ignorant" then statements like these:
Meanwhile the country has trundled off to war on a “pack of lies”, the president has authorized unlimited spying on the American people, 300,000 mostly poor, black people were ethnically cleansed in New Orleans, and countless thousands of innocent Muslims have been kept in bondage in American gulags.
Anyhow, I would like anyone to use GNU/Linux wheter they are a democrat or republican. This debianHELP site apparently isn't intended for the 50%+ of the Americans that voted for Bush. In my view GNU/Linux / free software should build bridges not divide amongst an imaginary border of left and right ;-) .
Quote:Anyhow, I would like
I agree with what you are saying (about building bridges) in principle. The problem is that politicians place their party loyalties above their loyalty to the country. It's really strange when you think about it because in theory a good leader will also be a popular leader. However, it is much easier to get ahead in politics by doing battle with the opposing party. In a two-party system, all you have to do to get ahead is make sure people like you better than the other party, or hate you less. It makes no difference whether a politician is the better candidate or the lesser of two evils-- either way they get elected.
On your point about the imaginary border of left and right... Given that politicians behave this way (they would like to divide Americans into left and right so that they have a reliable base), it is the people's responsibility not to put party loyalty above what is best for the country. That means that when a GW Bush comes along running up deficits and starting wars, I reserve the right to criticize both the president and his party. That should not be a partisan position unless the Republicans have become the party of fiscal irresponsibility and warmongering. And if Americans continue to support such a party, then the divide between left and right is not so imaginary anymore. Hopefully a few people still amount the 30 some percent of Americans who support Bush will stumble across the website and start to question their political belief system.
I seriously question the ability of liberals to lead this nation
Here's the problem with Democrat politicians: They can only accomplish something when they have majority power in Washington. Otherwise they simply whine and complain, and hope that they will regain power in the future, rather than working on solving real problems. I really haven't heard any good ideas from any liberals since Bush took office. Are they still struggling to get over the Al Gore defeat?
Do people honestly believe that we would have been safer without going to war in Afghanistan and Iraq? If so, how? What alternatives did Sadaam leave us? He wasn't letting inspectors in to verify the presence or absence of WMDs so what should we have done? You see, I find that it is quite easy to question the anti-war position, and it seems to me that most people against the war don't have any realistic, alternative approaches to the problems we face today.
Afghanistan and Iraq
Lets not group Afghanistan and Iraq together. A large majority of Americans supported going after the Taliban in Afghanistan because we were told the Taliban was harboring Bin Laden.
With Iraq, "stay the course" would have meant continuing to patrol the no-fly zone. We could have done this for decades, if necessary. Granted, life for Iraqis would not be so good in such a scenario. Iraq was no threat to the United States. Two direct confrontations on Iraqi soil with the Iraqi army resulted in only a couple hundred American deaths. Furthermore, Iraq launched missiles at Israel and couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.
This is a pile of crap... and it's too long
If you are going to post a copy of someone else's pile of crap writing, please limit it to two paragraphs or less. I could only handle reading the first few paragraphs of this "piece", and when I got to the part about "ethnic cleansing" in New Orleans, well, by that point it was clear that reading this article would be a complete waste of my time.
On a similar note, I find that most articles posted here are way too long, and mostly full of extremist positions and weak logic, not mention a severe lack of facts, which basically adds up to a bunch of hot air (and more wasted time). Why not just write your own opinions in concise form, and we can have a discussion? If you want to refer to some article, then post a link to it. Sadly though, most of the material I see posted in this particular political forum is a waste of time to read.
Haha - 'losalamos' has
Haha - 'losalamos' has written an excellent commentary on his own words.
And as cruel as he is, Saddam had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. There is no evidence to support the lies that our nation is safer for having bombed Afghanistan and Iraq (although as someone wrote over 400 years ago - a lie oft told will be taken for truth). What is clear is that the rest of the world is threatened by us - we now run in, abduct torture and murder people all in the name of "freedom". Our forces are spread thin at the moment, but don't worry - we'll get around to bombing Iran. Hmmm... Iraq - how many Iraqis have we killed so far? 50,000? If you think it's fine to murder tens of thousands because some very small group of fanatics killed 2,000 or so of our own, you've got something wrong with your head.
Please check you facts:
Please check you facts: http://www.logictimes.com/antiwar.htm
Jaclon is back! With new avatars ;-)
"Defendfreedom", "LosAlamos"...
Did anyone else zero on on these puerile handles?!
Then, of course, the parroting of FOX-TV kind of propaganda.
But the true giveaway is the short post constituted mostly of "accusatory questions" like "do you seriously believe that the world is flat?!" or "since when does 2 and 2 not equal 5?"
Throw in a link to some non-sequitur and you have it clear as 20/20.
So guys, let's face it: Jaclon has many avatars :-))
Too bad they all 'think' (or rather, not) alike...
VS
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux
Vees is paying his head tax
Vees,
IntnsRed can tell you if I have more than one avatar. Ask him and then apologize to those people who have their own opinions.
I haven't been posting because I've had problems believing your Hezbollah has been accused of War Crimes by your Amnesty International.
Is Hezbollah still paying you to do public relations for them? Are they applying your pay to your head tax?
"You are a little soul carrying around a corpse"
Epictetus
avatar!=handle
pal, we both *know* you posted here under different handles. but that is not the point. you might want to look up 'avatar' and take a pause to think a little...
also - neither you nor your avatars have anthing worth being called an 'opinion', at least no more than a parrot has one.
the rest of your inuendos are too lame to answer.
now let's see what the rest of your avatars have to say (-: did you guys have a Vulcan mind-melt of some kind :-)
VS
PS: as for IntnsRed knowing how many handles one might have - that is utter nonsense. Any script kiddie who has various email accounts and understands proxies and cookies can create as many "different" personalities as he/she wishes. Do you know as little about networks as you know about the Middle-East?
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux
You are ignorant
You don't think that Sadaam in any way provided aid, shelter, money, etc. to terrorists during the years leading up to the 9/11 attacks? My, you live in a dream world, very far from reality. You need to wake and face reality bud.
losalamos, Nobody's stopping
losalamos,
Nobody's stopping you from posting piles of someone else's crap writing. That way you get to chose how long they are, as well as pick the bias, keep it concise and so on. And it might even balance things out a bit.
Personally, I skip the articles and read the flamewars. So much cosier than Slashdot!
--
A tidy house is the sign of a stolen computer.
Correct & true subject title.
The reality of Americas influance in the world is open & obvious for all to see.
As much as "the powers that be" try to hide it, it's only hidden to the blind.
There is only one course of action, America MUST pull back from imperialism.
These policys only come from the industrialists, NOT the American people.
The people's vote is diluted & getting worse, & stupidity is at epic levels.
As much as the media works to confuse (not all of it), still little is hidden.
If the U.S. weren't in the middle east, then it'd be someone elses problem!
These & other outward policys must be replaced by a focus on inward ones.
America is fully capable of taking care of it's own, but it does not.
Lets face it folks... trying to run the world is a fools game (Bush & co.).
The U.S. gov. has made it clear by it's inaction that W will "get away with it".
Everyone seems to be hunkering down & trying to "wait out the Bush regime".
Lets pray that a new admin. in D.C. will bring back sanity & world respect.
You need a reality check too
"Imperialism"??? Where do you get that? It seems to me that we are just taking down terrorist regimes that threaten our own personal security here on our own soil. If you think that we can stay inside our shell, here at home and dream that the world around us is not going to threaten or harm us, I think you are ignorant. Look back at history and tell me that it was good that we stood by while Germany and Japan went marching over Europe and the Pacific.
Absolutely...
Saddam and the terrorists, although all muslim, have opposing beliefs. The Al'Qaida/Taliban and Saddam's Sunnis would rather kill eachother than form an alliance to terrorize the USA. (Well, maybe they'd be buddies now.) As for 'defendfreedom' and that ridiculous website - who but a manager would fall for that rubbish? In particular, the "sure we're killing innocent Iraqis but Saddam would have killed more than us so we're doing a fantastic job".
Among other things, the invasion of Iraq was a smokescreen for Dubbyah's failed invasion of Afghanistan. We bombed Afghanistan because the Taliban support these terrorists and provide training camps. The mastermind behind 9/11 is Osama and he roams freely in Afghanistan. Oh dear, it's so hard to find one man in a rather large area with few roads and numerous rugged mountains. Mission: FAILED! What show do we put on to make people think we're winning? By the way, how is Afghanistan doing? We've shut down some Taliban training camps, and assuming 100% of Taliban are terrorists (even I'd believe they all are) then we know we've closed a few terrorist training camps. Have we closed them all? Hell no. Have we got their boss? Hell no. Have we even got them all running scared? Hell no. Odds are Osama's planning his next attack, and all this "look good, feel good" smokescreen isn't going to prevent him from hitting his next target(s). Dubbyah is a miserable failure, but people have been wowed by all our bombing and talk of "smart weapons" and how damned good we are at getting a missile right up an ant's butt. I still want to see that bastard Osama hanged, and I'm still waiting for Dubbyah's troops to catch him. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting though.
I'd rather have Osama on the
I'd rather have Osama on the run rather than being cozy and comfy in Afganistan working freely on his next attack. At least Bush has been doing something to counter terrorism. Previous leaders of the U.S. failed to respond in any meaningful way. I don't think you can call the mission a failure yet.
You say you would like to see Osama hang. Well, can you propose a better way to go get him? Can you propose a better response to terrorism? It's easy to sit back and criticize President Bush, but what would you do that would be better than his response if YOU were president? I'd like to hear your answers to these questions before you call President Bush a miserable failure.
Well...
1. I wouldn't lie to the world so I could go to war with Saddam. No question he's a nasty bastard - but the war was not justified. I really can't think why Iraq was invaded - except for the oil which we have no luck getting at. It was probably just one of those things - like the fact that the war didn't last 2 weeks and the Iraqis are not all welcoming us - terrorist raids are quite common in Bhagdad now.
2. I wouldn't be so gung-ho to start a war with Iran
3. I wouldn't be encouraging the Cubans to start a civil war
4. I wouldn't be talking about murdering Hugo Chavez or sending a military force to take over Venezuela
5. I wouldn't be giving various policing agencies unlimited power; history has always proven that such powers have virtually no benefit but are guaranteed to be abused
6. I wouldn't be standing up in congress arguing that torture and murder should be a daily part of the duties of state
Gee, I really don't have time to go on about the things I wouldn't do. As for Osama - why would you believe he's on the run? Because Fox told you so? I don't believe he's on the run - he's probably out there enjoying life in Afghanistan - or Syria - or Saudi Arabia. Like I said, he's probably planning his next attack too.
... then what WOULD you do?
This is a nice list of what you wouldn't do, but it really is just a list of the things you think Bush has done that you don't like. It's really fairly easy to make a list like that. Now, could you please tell me what you WOULD do?
What WOULD you do if terrorists attacked the U.S.? What WOULD you do if a leader of another nation refuses to submit to full U.N. inspections, who has previously used chemical weapons on his own people, who has previously invaded another nation, who is friendly to known terrorists, and who is suspected of providing direct and/or indirect aid to known terrorists? What WOULD you do?
Re:then what would you do?
I think that your answer actually supports Mr Pinniped's list of things he wouldn't do as actual, positive things. Cynically lying to the American public actually has triggered something much more than an attitude or a set of harmless thoughts in lots of people. I read that somewhere around thirty percent of folks are so loyal to bush that his approval rating will never drop much below that number. These folks can be gulled over and over and never abandon the bush bateau no matter what he says. Just think what good stuff could be generated if this president told the truth and got those 30%'ers mobilized toward universal health care, safe working places, equitable pay for all, care for our planet; you know, things like that.
I won't soil my keyboard by repeating what you wrote, but once bush put those moose droppings out the 30%'ers have snapped 'em up and hang on to them like grim death. It's really weird, the stuff seems to just go right in RAM and then whenever someone actuates them by tapping on their brain stem it just goes directly out to audio and video without ever passing through the CPU.
Try this, next time somebody taps you brain stem take a couple of extra nanoseconds and pass that moose poop through the CPU. You'll probably be pretty surprised at how processed moose poop looks- it may become fertilizer!
Now if that doesn't help and it still comes out the same I think we'll have to chuck that 8088 processor, do a low-level reformat, create a new partition and then re-install everything from some un-compromised servers.
RE: Well...
@ pinniped
1 After the Gulf war a cease fire was agreed upon if Saddam complied with all the demands in resolution 687*. His failure to do so led to operation desert fox in 1998. Resolution 687 provides all the moral and legal justification necessary to end the cease fire and disarm Saddam by any other means necessary.
Points 1-6 are subjective and not backed by any facts and/or sources. It shows that you lack an academic background. Please don't waste my time with this garbage.
I am always open to learn new ideas and insights. That's what discussions are for in my opinion. I only ask of you to back up your opinions with verifiable facts.
*http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm
defendfreedom lacks any brains
You're obviously one of those morons who runs around spouting nmumbers that you pull out of your bottom in defense of your pathetic ideologies. You even have all these link to websites put up by people like yourself to give credence to the nonsense you believe. You're so stupid you'd say that what I've posted above is "subjective and not backed by facts"? How damned stupid are you? The goddamned president is on video broadcast on the news demanding that torture be part of the daily duties of the state - and you dispute even that? You're an idiot - most likely a republican born and bred.
Quote:The goddamned
Please give me a link to a video where he tells exactly that.
Lol, your actually saying that you regard the UN as a republican source.
you should have written 'defendfreedom/losalamos/jaclon' aka DLJ
Agreed.
But you should have written: defendfreedom/losalamos/jaclon (or DLJ for short)
as there is absolutely no difference in either style or substance between these three.
VS
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux
LOL! You are saying I am the
LOL! You are saying I am the same person as losalamos? Man you really are entangled in the web of your own lies.
I must say I am really disappointed to see time and time again that leftist arguments are emotion ridden underbelly feelings screamed out loud. The argumentative style remains the same: if I scream loud enough maybe someone will listen and agree. And hey if I don't have factual arguments I can always attack the person debating me. That is cool hu hu. After all this worked perfect in leftist paradises such as China, Russia, Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea...
defendfreedom is his own person
defendfreedom,
If you would check back in the posts, you will find that the one who will not be named, thinks I created you and losalamos. He doesn't believe that more than one person disagrees with his opinions.
I don't understand his sudden personal attacks. He's much to educated to depend on vitriolic attacks. I know that the ivy league universities taught that once it becomes name calling one has lost the debate.
I hope he will return to his intelligent reasoned responses.
Thanks for the additional
Thanks for the additional info. The triple identity argument is the most bizarre one I ever saw in a debate :-D . I hope with you that he will return to his intelligent reasoned responses.
MPD maybe? Or the Borg?
Dear 'Trinity', if it smells and looks like... well, you know the rest.
If you sincerely believe that 'Jaclon', 'losalamos' and 'defendfreedom' are three different persons you might wanna look up MPD in the DSM-IV.
The point is that you are exactly the same in substance and form so that would actually argue *against* MPD....
Maybe you were cloned by David Duke and Ann Coulter!
Or, as I said, you had a Vulcan mind-melt after being assimilated by the Borg.
Either way - I, for sure, cannot tell you apart. But that might be might own limitations failing to perceive the details of your tremendous originalities [sigh, eyeroll]
You are really too much...
VS
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux
RE:MPD maybe? Or the Borg?
Vees,
Aren't you a little to old to use fictional characters as debating points? Multiple Personality Disorder does explain your declining ability to debate without becoming personal.
I wish the the intelligent and kind personality I first read would return. He didn't need to insult people to make his point.
I will say a prayer for you.
Did you ever stop and
Did you ever stop and consider that the fictional characters I use were designed by their creators to allegorically express very real events. Take the Borg, for instance, which always repeats "resistance is futile, you shall be assimilated". Does that ring a bell? Does that not sound just like something we hear daily on the news from a Borg-like Empire?
As for the rest, all I am honestly saying is that I cannot tell you apart from your avatars (did you look up this word?). I am not making any 'point' at all nor is this a 'debate' about anything.
You and your avatars have, so far, come across as totally interchangable parrots of your basic, FOX-TV or Ann Coulter kind of 'conservatives' (that is the US expression, aborad that would be called turbocapitalist neofascists). And as such 'conservatives' always do, you do not live by what you preach. You get offended at my words and you say that wish to avoid insults, while all the time suggesting that I am actually on Hezbollah's payroll. Man, this is so pathetically lame...
Your choice of the "blue pill" (ie, the 'comfort' of ignorance and delusion) explains your ignorance of the real world, but not your utter lack of honesty. One can be deluded without being a hypocrit. As for me, I can put up with the former, but never with the latter.
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux
Vees, what would you do?
Vess, you seem like a smart guy. Can you actually offer any good suggestions for a better course of action in the face of terrorism today? It is said that Bush's presidency is cruel and degrading, so apparently we need help. Sadly, Pinneped and others here just can't seem to come up with any good ideas. All they can do is criticize the current administration, which frankly is very, very easy to do no matter who is President. It's just a shame that the liberal side of the political spectrum in this country is a vacuum when it comes to good ideas.
RE: Vees, what would you do?
losalamos,
If he does comment on your question, listen to him. He is smart with an analytical mind and understands much more than he posts. It's a shame he isn't a redneck. We could use his expertise.
terrorism 101
Ok. let go through this. terrorism 101:
Q) define the problem: is there a terrorist threat out there?
A) definitely. of the worst kind.
Q) what is it?
A) Wahabism/Salafism on one hand, and the Israeli-American Empire (IAE) on the other. BOTH are terrorist, with Israel clearly leading the pack as the current Uberterrorist of the planet.
Q) is it possible to fight terrorism today?
A) sure. First the easy one: the IAE's ideology and rulers need to be denounced, their propaganda exposed, and the people currently living under the regimes in Jerusalem and Washington need to be made aware of the fact that their governments are the cause of the problem and not the solution
Q) if a bunch of peace-loving pacifists came to power in Washington and Jerusalem, would the Wahhabi/Salafi terrorist just stop?
A) no. there is no stopping them. their ideology forces the rest of the world into a "either they or us" kind of scenario. hence, they need to be eliminated.
Q) how could that be done?
A) by realizing that there are only very few really dangerous countries in the world who are actually supporting these terrorists: Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
Q) you mean to say that the Saud family and Musharraf support Al-Qaeda?
A) nope. their *public opinion*, however, does in reaction to the government's official support of the IAE.
Q) so who could help in a struggle against the Wahabi/Salafis?
A) the worst enemy of the Wahabi/Salafis are (in the words of both Ibn-Taymiah and Zarkawi) the Shia. The Wahabis/Salafis consider the Shia are "rejectionist idolaters" and they will kill as many of them as they can. They Shia, who have been oppressed for centuries, are fully aware of this. The Shia are also the single most powerful force in the Middle-East. Have no illusions, the USA did only win in Afghanistan because the hard work on the ground was done by the Northern Alliance, the Uzbek and the Hazaras, all allies of Iran. Likewise, the US is only having a really bad time in Iraq and not a total nightmare because, for the time being, the Shia are using the US presence to fight the Sunni insurgency. De-facto the USA's "war on terror" exists ONLY because of the consent of the Shia. Should the IAE attack Iran, what happened in Lebanon the the IAE's forces will be repeated in Iraq for sure, and even possibly in Saudi Arabia itself.
Q) so what are you suggesting?
A) an overt alliance with Iran, Hezbollah and all the Shia forces in the Middle-East. That is, for the time being, what is already taking place in Iraq anyway. It is not taking place in Lebanon only because of the American Zionist Lobby's willingness to sacrifice even vital US interests to their own messianic hubris of a greater Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates. Also - remember that by removing the worst enemies of the Shia (Saddam Hussien and the Talibans) the USA has ALREADY acted as an ally to Iran and the Shia :-)) (for those doubting this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5277362.stm)
Q) can the US ally itself to the Shia AND remain Israel's main (-: and only :-) supporter?
A) nope. the US needs to decide whether Israel's racist and terrorist policies are worth supporting even at the price of loosing it all or not.
Q) but aren't Hezbollah terrorists too?
A) it seems that they did use terror tactics (kidnappings) in the eighties (although they deny this). They seem to have abandonend such actions since over already 20 years now. More relevantly, compared to any other political entity in the Middle-East they are truly models of restraint and inter-religious and ethnic tolerance and inclusion.
Q) WHAT?!?!?!
A) yep. but you need to stop listening to the IAE's propaganda and read up on Hezbollah for yourself. I don't really have the time for a lecture in this here, sorry. (I will point you to the first step though - get rid of ALL your TVs. They make you stupid and ignorant. Then spend the same time reading).
Q) Baloney! We just need to kick these raghead's collective asses with our bombers, cruise missiles and marines and THAT will solve the terrorist problem.
A) sure, be my guest and try. But please remember my prediction ("you heard it first on Debianhelp!"): you have already lost the war in Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon. Try attacking Iran and you will see how your entire Empire internally crashes (due to the price of oil) and externally evaporates (you have also lost South America, most of Asia, and a large chunk of Europe). Are you willing to loose it all for the Zionists' ideology?
Q) that would make you happy, woudn't it?
A) not at all, as it would put a lot of innocent people in a really hard situation and it would leave the rest of the world alone in fighting the resulting suge in Wahabism/Salafism. The US could, potentially, play a crucial role in the struggle against that ideology and the terrorist which fight for it, but only if it abandons its imperial hubris and gets rid of the political elites (the "Republicrats" as Mumia Abu-Jamal calls them) currently ruling in Washington.
Q) you are just a loony!
A) time will show ;-)
HTH
VS
PS: I love it when you guys (jaclon, losalamos, defendreedom) "talk to each other" - kind of like a trinity. LOL!
PPS: all these so-called 'security measures' (airport controls. colored alert levels, etc.) are total crap. anyone with expertise in terrorism knows that. the ONLY way to fight terrorism, or insurgents, is through intelligence, mainly human intelligence. The US intel community is both the biggest and the dumbest in the world. It also has the worst HUMINT of anyone. So it FULLY relies on so-called 'partners' to get a picture of what is going on. The current partners of the US suck. The Pakistani ISI is more pro-Taliban than pro-US, the Mossad+Aman+others are pathetic in their inaptitude (see their kindapping of a grocers called Nasrallah in Lebanon), the others in the region have very little real penetration in key areas. Can you guess who has the best intelligence capability in the entire Middle-East? Yep. Iran and Hezbollah.
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux
Hezbollah kidnappings ended 20 years ago? Really....
Are you saying that Hezbollah did not kidnap Israeli soldiers?
It would seem that this statement of yours is a little hard to believe--particularly the part I placed in bold:
I think that you are trying to sound too smart, Vees, and you're losing touch with reality.
ignorance + hypocrisy: a really ugly combination
Jaclon,
As I said previously, as long as you refuse to read and as long as you continue get your "info" from pro-Zionist corporate sources you will always sound like an ignorant idiot. I simply have no desire or time to educate you in basic facts and basic logic. If you want to call Hezbollah's seizure of these Israeli *soldiers* 'terrorism' - fine.
You asked a reasonable question, and I answered it. Only to have you come back with a lame, idiotic, non-sequitur. I have to tell you that as long as you refuse to read *books* to educate yourself you will remain stuck in your current condition.
Should you start reading one day, you will see why I totally stand by my words that "compared to any other political entity in the Middle-East they are truly models of restraint and inter-religious and ethnic tolerance and inclusion".
But no amount of reading will change you fundamental intellectual dishonesty. Calling Hezbollah 'terrorist' over the seizure of the IDF soldiers is ignorance, but calling them terrorist while constantly defending, however lamely, the actions of the world's Uberterrorist - Israel - is phenomenally hypocritical. Did you ever, ever, bother trying to get just a rough estimate of how many Lebanese or Palestinian civilians Israel kidnapped over the past 20 years (including the kidnapping of Hamas elected officials recently). How about your own country? It kidnaps people worldwide and makes them dissapear into a network of secret detention centers. Did you not know about that? Of course you know - even FOX-TV reported about it. This is not ignorance - this is crude, basic hypocrisy.
I have no respect for this.
VS
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux
Short reply: I must say
Short reply: I must say -despite your antisemitic attitude- your posts contained some interesting points. Off course I disagreed with your views of Hezbollah. Much to my surprise wikipedia seems to agree with you*. Hezbollah is only recognized a full terrorist organization by four countries worldwide. So I learned something new here.
I agree with you assessment of the threat looming upon us. And I share your fears about an war of attrition after which countries like China can emerge (economically) victorious. However I do think that in times of war it is important to rally behind our leaders and to show unity. Criticism like the ones in the forum topic leads in my opinion to erosion of the resolve needed to fight and win this war. Let's debate about tactics and strategies to win this war to keep our freedom and not about decisions made, which cannot be changed anyway.
*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah
anti-semitism? are you serious?!?!
My "anti-semitic attitude"?
In what way would any of what I wrote be reflective of anti-Semitism?!?!
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux
same old mud-slinging crap
Once again anyone who opposes zionism and the state of Israel is labelled anti-semitic.
Vees, you know their tricks. It's because these people have no serious arguments and therefore have to resort to mud-slinging.
As you wrote earlier, there are thousands of books, articles, video footage out there that clearly shows how the US state is the number 1 terrorist state, followed by Israel and the UK.
The US is the world's policeman and it looks after its own interests through terrorism. You don't have to look too far to see what the US elite wants to do to Chavez, what 'tricks' it has "employed" (read terrorist methods) to try and overthrow castro in Cuba. The whole of Central America and South America is full of US terrorist activity, let alone what they have been up to in the Middle East, Asia and Africa.
And it is all documented.
You're right Vees, people like jaclo(w)n are a waste of time engaging with. Jaclo(w)n knows what the US has been upto, he simply supports it.
anticapitalista
"Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it."
Lemmgins and their armed forces
"it is imporant to rally behind our leaders and to show unity"
well, that is exactly what a lemming would say, ain't it?
as for China emerging victorious 'economically' this is not the worst threat for you. Iran will prevail *militarily* over the USA just as Hezbollah prevailed militarily over the IDF.
I understand that for a brainwashed American the thought of the US military loosing a war is literally unthinkable, as in "unable to think it". you probably even think that you "never lost Vietnam militarily". But of course you have.
The performance of the US military in the invasion of Grenada was a pathetic disgrace. In Panama, it was mediocre at best. Somalia was a total FUBAR. The air war against one corps of the Serbian Army in Kosovo was a total and utter disaster (hidden by the 'effective' bombing of the civilian population throughout Yugoslavia). In Afghanistan, all the hard work was done by the Northern Alliance. Only the first invasion of Iraq was all in all generally well conducted, but that was against the worst and most incompetant military commander of the century" Saddam. So face it, here are the grades your military and intelligence gets:
1) US Army: C-
2) Marine Corps: B-
3) Navy: A-
4) US Air Force: A
5) special operations: F
5) combined US intel capability F
This is just not what it takes to fight a war against any form of terrorism. It is adequate to control the air and the seas, but simply does not allow for "boots on the ground" to get the job done, in particular against an insurgency
So there is nothing to 'debate about tactics and stragegies to win this war' as this war is already lost. furthermore, if insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again expecting different results, then pursuing this war is truly insane
VS
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux
Sigh, boring retoretic again
Sigh, boring retoretic again not backed by facts. vees, anticapitalista, your bore me with you fascistic/socialistic/leftist propaganda. I can imagine you miss the gold old days of Stalin. Mao etc. where everything was clear and peaceful.
Oh by the way, I am European.
You are a European and you
You are a European and you call yourself "defendfreedom". Unfriggingbelievable!
You are a European and you actually see some fascist, socialist, leftist or, even better, Stalinist overtones in ANY of what I EVER wrote? Unfrigginbelievable!
You are a European and you have *fears* that China might overcome the USA economically. Totally, utterly, absolutely and terminally unfrigginbelievable!
You sure sound (and think) like a Texas Republican to me..
[And, by the way, I am a European by ethnicity, birth and about 90% of my lifetime (alas, now temporarily exiled - for my sins, no doubt - to the land of the brave and home of the free)]
VS
PS: Anticapitalista put me to shame about my somewhat narrow statement about my European roots. I think I want to join him and add that by conviction I am also an internationalist
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux
... a critic with nothing to offer society.
Translation: "I am a passivist weenie who prefers to pee my pants and shove my head in the sand rather than face international bad-guys and bullies. When it comes to solving real-world problems and real-world conflicts, there is no answer and the best policy is no policy. Any policy is bad policy, and any action is bad action. No action is the best action. I'm happy as long as I've got my little house where I can hole up and ignore all the bad things that happen in the world. Somewhere safe where I can find propaganda that is easy for me to believe, and from where I can share my superior knowledge with all the infidels of the United States."
Sigh, boring retoretic again
Sigh, boring retoretic again not backed by facts. vees, anticapitalista, your bore me with you fascistic/socialistic/leftist propaganda. I can imagine you miss the gold old days of Stalin. Mao etc. where everything was clear and peaceful.
Oh by the way, I am European.
---defendfreedom.
Sigh, more 50 European cents, throwaway, meaningless without content comments to be bored with by a Tory/Blairite who I can imagine wishes that the good (gold?) ol' days of (European) Empire where everything was so clear and peaceful prevailed and when them damn pesky lefty, pinko, trots, maoists, anarchists, trade-unionists, socialists, (have I forgotten anybody?) were imprisoned or better still bloody well taken out and hanged.(to save the cost of a bullet, we are capitalista after all)
Oh by the way, I'm an Internationalist who happens to be born and live in Europe.
anticapitalista
"Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it."
"have I forgotten
"have I forgotten anybody?"
Sure - you should add all these also:
Hippies, Kibbutznicks, self-hating Jews, pacifists, FSF/GNU/RMS/GPLv3 zealots (-: like myself :-), commie-fellow-travelers, fags, tree-huggers, niggers, ragheads, pakies, gooks, civil libertarians, pot-smokers, immigrants and tons more of such riffraff
The list of people this kind of folks hate is very long indeed. It is simply easier to just call it all "crimethinkers". or simply 'thinkers' maybe ;-)
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux
... you are full of crap.
I don't time to read the propaganda you read. I could care less about zionism. As far as I'm concerned, the fight over the holy land is just as bad from both sides. You try to make Hezbollah out like it's this great organization. Please. You're full of crap if you believe that. Go read your own little books and stay in your dream-world. Is is cozy and comfortable in your dream-world? I just don't see the logic or reason of your statements. Maybe you've convinced yourself that it's logical, but it's the result of a deluded mind--one caught up in trying to sound too smart. Sometimes you can be too smart for your own good, and I think that in this case, you've crossed that line.
As always - time will show
Time will show whether I am full of crap or not. Just remember this: you heard it first on debianhelp!
;-)
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux
told ya!
Remember what I said two days ago about Pakistan and ISI?
Bingo! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5394686.stm
so far so good with my predictions ;-)
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux