The Unending Torture of Omar Khadr

The Unending Torture of Omar Khadr
He was a child of jihad, a teenage soldier in bin Laden's army. Captured on the battlefield when he was only fifteen, he has been held at Guantanamo Bay for the past four years -- subjected to unspeakable abuse sanctioned by the president himself

Jeff Tietz
In July 2002, a Special Forces unit in southeast Afghanistan received intelligence that a group of Al Qaeda fighters was operating out of a mud-brick compound in Ab Khail, a small hill town near the Pakistani border. The Taliban regime had fallen seven months earlier, but the rough border regions had not yet been secured. When the soldiers arrived at the compound, they looked through a crack in the door and saw five men armed with assault rifles sitting inside. The soldiers called for the men to surrender. The men refused. The soldiers sent Pashto translators into the compound to negotiate. The men promptly slaughtered the translators. The American soldiers called in air support and laid siege to the compound, bombing and strafing it until it was flat and silent. They walked into the ruins. They had not gotten far when a wounded fighter, concealed behind a broken wall, threw a grenade, killing Special Forces Sgt. Christopher Speer. The soldiers immediately shot the fighter three times in the chest, and he collapsed.

When the soldiers got close, they saw that he was just a boy. Fifteen years old and slightly built, he could have passed for thirteen. He was bleeding heavily from his wounds, but he was -- unbelievably -- alive. The soldiers stood over him.

"Kill me," he murmured, in fluent English. "Please, just kill me."

His name was Omar Khadr. Born into a fundamentalist Muslim family in Toronto, he had been prepared for jihad since he was a small boy. His parents, who were Egyptian and Palestinian, had raised him to believe that religious martyrdom was the highest achievement he could aspire to. In the Khadr family, suicide bombers were spoken of with great respect. According to U.S intelligence, Omar's father used charities as front groups to raise and launder money for Al Qaeda. Omar's formal military training -- bombmaking, assault-rifle marksmanship, combat tactics -- before he turned twelve. For nearly a year before the Ab Khail siege, according to the U.S. government, Omar and his father and brothers had fought with the Taliban against American and Northern Alliance forces in Afghanistan. Before that, they had been living in Jalalabad, with Osama bin Laden. Omar spent much of his adolescence in Al Qaeda compounds.

At Ab Khail, a sergeant later said, every U.S. soldier who walked by Omar longed to put a bullet in his head. But an American medic, working near the corpse of Sgt. Speer, saved Omar's life, and he was taken to a hospital at Bagram Air Base with a bullet-split chest and serious shrapnel wounds to the head and eye. U.S. intelligence officers began interrogating him as soon as he regained consciousness. At that moment, Omar entered the extralegal archipelago of torture chambers and detention cells that the Bush administration has erected to prosecute its War on Terror. He has remained there ever since.

At Bagram, he was repeatedly brought into interrogation rooms on stretchers, in great pain. Pain medication was withheld, apparently to induce cooperation. He was ordered to clean floors on his hands and knees while his wounds were still wet. When he could walk again, he was forced to stand for hours at a time with his hands tied above a door frame. Interrogators put a bag over his head and held him still while attack dogs leapt at his chest. Sometimes he was kept chained in an interrogation room for so long he urinated on himself.

After the invasion of Afghanistan, President Bush decided, in violation of the Geneva Convention, that any adolescent apprehended by U.S. forces could be treated as an adult at age sixteen. The problem with treating teenage prisoners as adults, whatever their crimes, is that teenagers are especially

Before boarding a C-130 transport to Guantanamo, Omar was dressed in an orange jumpsuit and hog-chained: shackled hand and foot, a waist chain cinching his hands to his stomach, another chain connecting the shackles on his hands to those on his feet. At both wrist and ankle, the shackles bit. The cuffs permanently scarred many prisoners on the flight, causing them to lose feeling in their limbs for several days or weeks afterward. Hooded and kneeling on the tarmac with the other prisoners, Omar waited for many hours. His knees sent intensifying pain up into his body and then went numb.

Just before he got on the plane, Omar was forced into sensory-deprivation gear that the military uses to disorient prisoners prior to interrogation. The guards pulled black thermal mittens onto Omar's hands and taped them hard at the wrists. They pulled opaque goggles over his eyes and placed soundproof earphones over his ears. They put a deodorizing mask over his mouth and nose. They bolted him, fully trussed, to a backless bench. Whichever limbs hadn't already lost sensation from the cuffs lost sensation from the high-altitude cold during the flight, which took fifteen hours. "There was points I wished to God that one of these MPs would go crazy and then shoot me," recalled one of the hundreds of detainees who have made the trip. "It was the only time in my life that I really wished for a bullet."

At Guantanamo, Omar was led, his senses still blocked, onto a bus that took the prisoners to a ferry dock. Some of the buses didn't have seats, and the prisoners usually sat cross-legged on the floor. Guards often lifted the prisoners' earphones, told them not to move, and when they moved -- helplessly, with the motion of the bus, like bowling pins -- started kicking them. The repeated blows often left detainees unable to walk for weeks.

After the ferry ride, Omar was evaluated at a base hospital. "Welcome to Israel," someone told him. Then he was locked in a steel cage eight feet long and six feet wide. Because the cage had a sink and squat-toilet and the bed was welded to the floor, the open floor space was comparable to that of a small walk-in closet. The cages had been hurriedly constructed from steel mesh and transoceanic shipping containers. Giant banana rats ran freely through the cells and across the roofs and shit everywhere: on beds, on sinks, on Korans. Prisoners were allowed only one five-minute shower each week; the cellblocks stood in a perpetual stench.

Omar's arrival at Guantanamo in October 2002 coincided with a fundamental turn in the administration's War on Terror. Within weeks of his arrival, at the authorization of President Bush, interrogators at the detention facility began using starkly inhumane techniques. Before Omar Khadr had even started to assimilate the wondrous horrors of Guantanamo Bay, his captors began to torture him.

Ahmed said Khadr, Omar's father, always said he did not want to die in bed. He wanted to be killed. When his children were very young, he told them, "If you love me, pray that I will get martyred." Three times he asked Omar's older brother Abdurahman to become a suicide bomber. It would bring honor to the family, he said. Abdurahman declined. Later, when Ahmed sensed that Abdurahman's faith was weakening, he told him, "If you ever betray Islam, I will be the one to kill you."

Omar and his brothers attended madrassahs and Islamic schools. His mother and two older sisters covered their bodies and completely veiled their faces. At home, the Khadr children were warned that the purity of Islam was being compromised, from within and without. The quest to repurify it diminished to insignificance everything else in life. Purity was the simple measure by which good and evil were distinguished, and the means of destroying evil were equally simple. The Khadr children were raised to serve a purpose. Their fealty was sounded every day.

In 1988, when Omar was two, the Khadrs left Toronto for Peshawar, Pakistan, so Ahmed could take a job with a charity called Human Concern International. In those days, Peshawar was an operational base for Islamist insurgents fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden had gone there to recruit, fund and train mujahedeen. Intelligence sources claim that many of the orphans and refugees aided by Khadr later became fundamentalist guerrillas under the guidance of bin Laden.

In 1992, not long after Omar had begun his studies at a madrassah in Peshawar, Ahmed nearly died after stepping on a land mine in Logar Province, Afghanistan. (Intelligence sources say he had gone there to fight with predecessors of the Taliban in the Afghan civil war.) Ahmed was evacuated to a hospital in Toronto, and the rest of the family returned to Canada with him. It would take him two years to recover.

Of the Khadr children, Omar was the closest to his father. He was seven when Ahmed got hurt. It was hard to keep him away from his father's bedside. In Toronto, he proved to be one of those unusual children who take it upon themselves to care for their families -- he seemed to want to hold his father's place until Ahmed recovered. "He was always there for us," his sister Zaynab recalled later. When someone wasn't feeling well, Omar would always bring them the comfort food they liked best. He was hypersensitive to tension in the family and instinctively dispelled it: He often did an impersonation of Captain Haddock, the spluttering character from the Belgian comic-book series Tintin, which Omar loved: "Buh-buh-billions of bl-bl-blistering bl-bl-blue barnacles!" he would say, or "Ten thousand thuh-thuh-thundering typhoons!" It always broke everybody up.

Donations collected at the Khadrs' mosque paid the rent while Ahmed was in the hospital. The Isna Islamic School waived tuition for the Khadr children. At school, Omar did well in everything. He began memorizing the Koran, in Arabic, at age seven. He seemed to know that his successes could counterbalance the underachievements of his brothers. On Abdurahman's report card, his Islamic-studies teacher wrote, "May Allah help him." Omar's teachers made it clear that they were grateful to have him in their classes. "He was very smart, very eager and very polite," one recalled.

As soon as Ahmed was well enough to walk with a four-pointed cane, he moved the family back to Peshawar and resumed working for Human Concern International. Not long after they arrived, when Omar was nine, terrorists led by Ayman al-Zawahiri suicide-bombed the Egyptian embassy in Islamabad. According to Pakistani intelligence, much of al-Zawahiri's operational funding had passed through Human Concern International. One of the vehicles used in the attack had been purchased by a Sudanese man living with the Khadrs. The entire Khadr family was detained, their compound was raided, and Ahmed was imprisoned and tortured.

When the family was finally allowed to visit Ahmed in prison, they found a crippled old man primitively confined alongside murderers and armed robbers. Omar seemed unable to recover from this sight. Ahmed, maintaining his innocence, went on a hunger strike and was hospitalized. Omar spent every night at the hospital, curled up on the concrete floor beneath his father's bed.

Omar had not reached the age of reason; his nine-year-old imagination could not yet accommodate the world's layers. But he had been trained, with special care, to divide the universe into the province of righteous work and the forces arrayed against it. Twice now he had watched his father nearly die in the service of righteousness. The forces Omar Khadr had been warned against must have seemed, from beneath his father's second hospital bed, very real: omnipresent and irrational, destroying the sacred for its very sanctity. If Omar's kind disposition seemed to dissent from the hardness of his family's beliefs, then witnessing his father's suffering ended it. Ahmed's identity subsumed Omar's own; the son accepted the price and necessity of the father's cause. Omar did not lose his uncommon altruistic compassion, but he acquired, unavoidably, a fixed fervency he seemed ready to act on. The Toronto imam who had known him when he was seven said Omar's experience in Pakistan left him "radicalized."

After four months in prison, Ahmed Said Khadr was released at the request of the Canadian government. He moved his family to Jalalabad, Afghanistan, to live with Osama bin Laden. Bin Laden and his many wives and children occupied a large dirt-wattle compound surrounded by military training camps. The Khadr family denies being part of Al Qaeda, but the U.S. government says that Omar was soon sent to join his older brothers, Abdullah and Abdurahman, at a military camp outside the town of Khalden. The camp provided instructional units on handguns, sniper tactics and marksmanship, assault rifles, bombmaking and combat tactics.

Life in the Jalalabad compound was spare. Bin Laden forbade ice and electricity. He wanted people to know how to live with nothing. Abdurahman later described him as a regular guy who liked volleyball and horse racing. "He had financial issues, issues with his kids," Abdurahman said. "'The kids aren't listening. The kids aren't doing this and that.'" Bin Laden's children drank Coke whenever they could, despite his ban on American products. To get them to memorize the Koran, bin Laden promised to buy them horses.

In 1998, when Al Qaeda members suicide-bombed the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 220 people and wounding 4,000, everyone in the Jalalabad compound celebrated. A lot of free juice was handed out. People joked that they should carry out more operations -- they'd get free juice all the time. The celebration ended when the Americans retaliated with cruise missiles, destroying buildings and killing and wounding a dozen people. For Omar, the attack reinforced, as nothing else had, his belief that the enemy was real. Omar was fourteen on September 11th. The attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon created an uproar of rejoicing in the camps, but everyone knew that serious American reprisals were imminent, and the compounds were abandoned. Abdurahman, who had become deeply disillusioned with Al Qaeda's killing of civilians, defected to Kabul, where he was taken prisoner by the Northern Alliance and handed over to the CIA. According to the U.S. government, Omar followed his father into the mountains, where they soon began fighting for Al Qaeda.

Whatever his indoctrination at that moment, Omar would still have been recognizable to the people who had known him as a boy in Toronto. "Omar is our mother and our father, our sister and our brother," Ahmed wrote in a letter to Zaynab. "He does everything for us. He cooks our meals and does our laundry. Sometimes, I ask your mother: Are you sure he's ours? He's too good to be ours."

A few months after Omar Khadr arrived at Guantanamo Bay, he was awakened by a guard around midnight. "Get up," the guard said. "You have a reservation." "Reservation" is the commonly used term at Gitmo for interrogation.

In the interrogation room, Omar's interviewer grew displeased with his level of cooperation. He summoned several MPs, who chained Omar tightly to an eye bolt in the center of the floor. Omar's hands and feet were shackled together; the eye bolt held him at the point where his hands and feet met. Fetally positioned, he was left alone for half an hour.

Upon their return, the MPs uncuffed Omar's arms, pulled them behind his back and recuffed them to his legs, straining them badly at their sockets. At the junction of his arms and legs he was again bolted to the floor and left alone. The degree of pain a human body experiences in this particular "stress position" can quickly lead to delirium, and ultimately to unconsciousness. Before that happened, the MPs returned, forced Omar onto his knees, and cuffed his wrists and ankles together behind his back. This made his body into a kind of bow, his torso convex and rigid, right at the limit of its flexibility. The force of his cuffed wrists straining upward against his cuffed ankles drove his kneecaps into the concrete floor. The guards left.

An hour or two later they came back, checked the tautness of his chains and pushed him over on his stomach. Transfixed in his bonds, Omar toppled like a figurine. Again they left. Many hours had passed since Omar had been taken from his cell. He urinated on himself and on the floor. The MPs returned, mocked him for a while and then poured pine-oil solvent all over his body. Without altering his chains, they began dragging him by his feet through the mixture of urine and pine oil. Because his body had been so tightened, the new motion racked it. The MPs swung him around and around, the piss and solvent washing up into his face. The idea was to use him as a human mop. When the MPs felt they'd successfully pretended to soak up the liquid with his body, they uncuffed him and carried him back to his cell. He was not allowed a change of clothes for two days.

The design of Omar Khadr's life at Guantanamo Bay apparently began as a theory in the minds of Air Force researchers. After the Korean War, the Air Force created a program called SERE -- Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape -- to help captured pilots resist interrogation. SERE's founders wanted to know what kind of torture was most destructive to the human psyche so that they could train pilots to withstand it. In experiments, they held subjects in dummy POW camps and had them starved, stripped naked and partially drowned. Administrators carefully noted the subjects' reactions, often measuring the levels of stress hormones in their blood.

The most effective form of torture turned out to have two components. The first is pain and harm delivered in unpredictable, sometimes illusory environments -- an absolute denial of physical comfort and spatial-temporal orientation. The second is a removal of the inner comfort of identity -- achieved by artfully humiliating people and coercing them to commit offenses against their own religion, dignity and morality, until they become unrecognizable to and ashamed of themselves.

SERE scientists came up with a variety of stress-torture techniques: sleep deprivation, sexual mortification, religious desecration, hooding, waterboarding. In SERE theory, the techniques are be used in concert and continuously -- coercive interrogation should become a life experience. This is Guantanamo Bay: To be held there is, per se, to be tortured. Behavioral scientists reportedly manage every aspect of detainees' lives. In one case, a psychologist told guards to limit a detainee to seven squares of toilet paper a day.

While he was at Guantanamo, Omar was beaten in the head, nearly suffocated, threatened with having his clothes taken indefinitely and, as at Bagram, lunged at by attack dogs while wearing a bag over his head. "Your life is in my hands," an intelligence officer told him during an interrogation in the spring of 2003. During the questioning, Omar gave an answer the interrogator did not like. He spat in Omar's face, tore out some of his hair and threatened to send him to Israel, Egypt, Jordan or Syria -- places where they tortured people without constraints: very slowly, analytically removing body parts. The Egyptians, the interrogator told Omar, would hand him to Askri raqm tisa -- Soldier Number Nine. Soldier Number Nine, the interrogator explained, was a guard who specialized in raping prisoners.

Omar's chair was removed. Because his hands and ankles were shackled, he fell to the floor. His interrogator told him to get up. Standing up was hard, because he could not use his hands. When he did, his interrogator told him to sit down again. When he sat, the interrogator told him to stand again. He refused. The interrogator called two guards into the room, who grabbed Omar by the neck and arms, lifted him into the air and dropped him onto the floor. The interrogator told them to do it again -- and again and again and again. Then he said he was locking Omar's case file in a safe: Omar would spend the rest of his life in a cell at Guantanamo Bay.

Several weeks later, a man who claimed to be Afghan interrogated Omar. He wore an American flag on his uniform pants. He said his name was Izmarai -- "lion" -- and he spoke in Farsi and occasionally in Pashto and English. Izmarai said a new prison was under construction in Afghanistan for uncooperative Guantanamo detainees. "In Afghanistan," Izmarai said, "they like small boys." He pulled out a photograph of Omar and wrote on it, in Pashto, "This detainee must be transferred to Bagram."

Omar was taken from his chair and short-shackled to an eye bolt in the floor, his hands behind his knees. He was left that way for six hours. On March 31st, 2003, Omar's security level was downgraded to "Level Four, with isolation." Everything in his cell was taken, and he spent a month without human contact in a windowless box kept at the approximate temperature of a refrigerator.

When he was not being tortured or held in isolation, Omar spent virtually every waking minute of his captivity at Guantanamo alone in his cell, first in a facility called Camp Delta and then in one called Camp V. His left eye, the one injured at Ab Khail, had gone blind and was immobile. Except for a Koran, there was nothing in Omar's cells to occupy his mind. During his first year and a half at Guantanamo, he was permitted to exercise only twice a week for fifteen minutes, in a cage slightly larger than his own. Conversation between cells was possible, but prisoners had become so unstable and fearful of one another that they tended not to say much; there were no friendships. Omar tried to talk to his guards, about anything, but they were unresponsive. They often covered their nameplates with tape before entering detention facilities.

As Guantanamo was imposing heavy stagnation on Omar, it was also instilling in him an abiding sense of vulnerability and disequilibrium. The call to prayer was usually played five times a day, but sometimes it changed, or stopped. Exercise could come at any time of the day or night. If the guards woke you at 3:30 a.m. and you didn't present yourself quickly enough to please them, you didn't get to exercise. The timing and character of interrogations followed no pattern. Sometimes prisoners were woken up and moved from cell to cell for half the night for no apparent reason. This tactic was so common it became known among guards as "the frequent-flier program."

Meal portions were usually small enough to keep the prisoners in a state of low-grade hunger. Several times Omar found powder or partially dissolved tablets in the plastic glass he got with his food. The drugs produced dizziness, sleepiness or hyperalertness. Tasteless and invisible, they were not detectable beforehand. Omar was never told what they were or why he had been drugged. Once, when he was being transferred, Omar learned that his brother Abdurahman was in an adjacent prison yard. Abdurahman, forced by the CIA to choose between life imprisonment and cooperation, had chosen the latter. Omar had no idea that his brother was in Guantanamo to spy on detainees.

"How are you? How are you?" Abdurahman yelled in Arabic.

According to Abdurahman, Omar told him to stick to the story the family had agreed upon -- the Khadrs did charity work and knew nothing of Al Qaeda.

"But how is your health?" Abdurahman yelled.

"It's OK," Omar yelled back. "I'm just losing my left eye and all. They don't want to operate on it."

It was the only time they encountered one another. Guards and interrogators continually reminded Omar that no one in the world knew where he was. No one would know if they decided to kill him. He heard gunshots. He heard the sounds other prisoners made when they were dragged back from interrogation rooms. Around the time of Omar's arrival, detainees watched as guards rushed into the cell of a prisoner named Jumah Al-Dousari and began kicking him in the stomach and bashing his head against the floor. "When they took him out," one detainee later reported, "they hosed the cell down and the water ran red with blood." It was the kind of beating Omar witnessed repeatedly.

In July 2004, when Omar was seventeen, he was moved to Camp V. In his new cell the fluorescent ceiling lights stayed on twenty-four hours a day. Sometimes he went for weeks without seeing daylight. His cell was kept cold; Omar spent a lot of his time trying to stay warm: balling himself up, covering his extremities to the extent it was possible, making the best use of his blanket and mattress pad when they hadn't been confiscated. His metal cot was a problem: It briskly gave away his body heat.

After a day in his Camp V cell, Omar had nothing more to see, touch, taste, hear or smell. He was accompanied only by his own disordered thoughts. He tried to sleep the time away, but the cold was inimical to sleep, and the incessant lighting had divested him of his feel for night and day. Over the course of any given month, Omar did not know whether he would get to see the sun, have a conversation with another human being or be allowed to wear clothes. For the past four years, Guantanamo has held him dead-still in the vacuum of his cell without ever allowing him to come to rest. The institution has made it clear to him that this will remain, for untold years, the form of his life.

One of the chief mental defenses against harsh imprisonment is durable perspective; sanity requires a steady identity. But identity in adolescence is precarious by nature: Teenagers change their identities and beliefs all the time, and they cannot develop a secure perspective in the isolation of captivity. To figure out the world, teenagers have to be in it. For adolescents like Omar Khadr, who have already experienced radical trauma, the characteristic symptoms of months or years of harsh imprisonment -- paranoid delusions, suicidal tendencies, hallucinatory psychoses -- can become irreversible.

Soon after Omar arrived at Guantanamo, he began exhibiting the kinds of disassociative symptoms most adolescent psychiatrists would have expected. He was startled to the point of disorientation by small changes in his surroundings. He had fainting spells. He cried frequently. When he heard gunshots at Camp Delta, he had a vision of helicopter gunships descending on him, and these kinds of enclosing flashbacks came repeatedly, as did nightmares about the Ab Khail firefight, in which he felt, with phenomenal verisimilitude, bullets piercing his chest. His appetite diminished; he took on the appearance of the permanently malnourished. He entered what clinicians call a state of hypervigilance: He started thinking he might be attacked at any time -- without reason, his heart rate would jump, and he would sweat and hyperventilate. He began hearing sounds -- screams, bombs, things he could not identify -- when the cellblock was silent. Every week or so, a self-generated rage possessed him -- an experience wholly foreign to his character. For long periods he felt no emotion at all. He started blaming himself for the things that had happened to him; he became deeply ashamed of what he had suffered. He developed a pronounced twitch on the left side of his face, of which he remained unaware.

As with every other detainee at Guantanamo, Omar's future became a vacancy upon arrival, and his imagination quickly lost the ability to fill it. There were no conditions for release: The Bush administration had suspended all rules of judicial review and due process. The human mind has tools for dealing with extreme physical and emotional stress, but it is not equipped to manage purgatorial limbo. In every POW camp in history there has been an easily imagined endpoint: the end of the war. In the Soviet gulag, there were charges and trials and sentences, however fraudulent. The machinery was visible. If you weren't worked to death, you got out. At Guantanamo, what detainee after detainee has said -- what study after study has shown -- is that insanity and suicidal impulses inevitably accompany the kind of futurelessness Gitmo imposes on its inmates. In June, three detainees hung themselves in their cells, and more than forty others have attempted suicide since 2003. The quantity of such self-destruction, in circumstances so carefully designed to prevent it, indicates a suffusing despair unimaginable outside the gates of the base. Even if all the detainees were released today and received immediate psychological treatment, a great majority would be psychologically impaired for the rest of their lives.

Omar thought earnestly about killing himself. In January 2003, four months after he arrived, his guards were sufficiently worried about his suicidal disposition to confiscate his possessions. Psychosis was all around him. During the fall of 2004, Omar watched an Arab orthopedist named Ayman go insane. Over a period of months, Dr. Ayman became entirely mute, except for an occasional scream and a single question, asked of no one in particular: "Who is a woman here?"

Several medical experts have reviewed the results of two mental-status exams administered to Omar. All concurred in their interpretations. Dr. Eric Trupin, who has written extensively on the effects of incarceration on adolescents, concluded that Omar has been traumatized and tortured to a degree that is, in Trupin's considerable experience, remarkable.

"The impact of these harsh interrogation techniques on an adolescent such as O.K., who also has been isolated for almost three years, is potentially catastrophic to his future development," Trupin stated in his report. "Long-term consequences of harsh interrogation techniques are both more pronounced for adolescents and more difficult to remediate or treat even after such interrogations are discontinued, particularly if the victim is uncertain as to whether they will resume. It is my opinion, to a reasonable scientific certainty, that O.K.'s continued subjection to the threat of physical and mental abuse places him at significant risk for future psychiatric deterioration, which may include irreversible psychiatric symptoms and disorders, such as a psychosis with treatment-resistant hallucinations, paranoid delusions and persistent self-harming attempts."

To see their client Omar Khadr at Guantanamo Bay, Muneer Ahmad and Rick Wilson have to take a chartered single-prop plane from Miami to the base. It takes four hours to circumnavigate Cuban airspace. The bay itself is uncommonly beautiful. It is horseshoe-shaped, with the camps on one side and military and civilian housing on the other. Nothing ever moves quickly; multiday waits, for unexplained security reasons, are standard. Ahmad and Wilson sometimes have to wait a week to see Omar for a few hours. To protect the Cuban iguana, in accordance with the Endangered Species Act, the speed limit on the base is set at twenty-five miles an hour -- a good metaphor, Ahmad says, for the studied stalling techniques of the base's administrators. The camps are on a level piece of ground close to the sea. They come into view when the visitors' bus rounds the final curve. From that distance, in the beauty of the setting, the prison complex appears to be a resort.

Ahmad and Wilson are professors of law at American University, where they run the International Human Rights Law Clinic. Ahmad is slender and pensive; Wilson is a sizable guy whose default attitude is geniality. They began representing Omar Khadr after the U.S. Supreme Court granted due-process rights to Guantanamo prisoners in 2004. They took the case on legal principle but also, as Ahmad says, "to remind the world that this kid is there, that he is alive, that his life has value and meaning and that he's been thrown in a hole. It's our collective responsibility to treat him with the dignity that he deserves."

When Ahmad saw Omar for the first time, in October 2004 -- after the convoluted flight and the numberless delays and checkpoints and searches and phalanxes of armed soldiers, and after being told so many times how evil the detainees were -- his first thought was "He's just a little kid." Omar was gaunt and pale, in a state of everlasting exhaustion, his senses starved by solitude. He had large gunshot-wound scars on his back and chest, and smaller scars over most of his body, several parts of which still held shrapnel.

"You feel a general protectiveness toward these folks just because they're kept without access to anyone," Ahmad says. "And because of Omar's age and lack of world experience, you feel that much more protective. You're conscious of not infantilizing him, but when someone is that young, you would be wrong not to recognize this. Our contention is that children are deserving of special protection -- that's been our legal approach, and it's also been our ethos in our relationship with him."

It took Omar a while to accept that his lawyers were not part of the interrogation system at Guantanamo. Their initial visits, Wilson says, were spent trying to get him to believe in them -- legal strategy was secondary. Gradually, Omar revealed himself to be very shy and curious and, in most ways, still a child, with a child's sweetness and credulous charm. Despite the rate at which his bones were lengthening, isolation and trauma seemed to have preserved him in emotional time. When he learned a new word -- his experiences had left odd gaps in his knowledge -- he tried to use it right away, and as often as possible. When Wilson and Ahmad offered to get him something to read, he asked for coloring books and car magazines and books with photographs of big animals. When they asked him what kind of juice he wanted them to bring back after a break during one meeting, he said, "Just something weird."

Whenever Wilson or Ahmad left a pen on the interview table, Omar would pick it up and start taking it apart and putting it back together again. He always asked to play with Ahmad's digital watch, which had a stopwatch function; he never tired of using it to test his reflexes. He wanted to know all about his lawyers: their ages, their hometowns, their family backgrounds, why they had chosen to become lawyers. The few short letters he was able to write are the work of a child:

To my dear family:- i miss you very much and i hope i can see you in the nearast time . . . don't forgat me from you pray'urs and don't forget to writ me and if ther any problem writ me. your [heart] son:- omar [heart] khadr

When he discussed the government's case against him, Omar did not mention ideology or God. He was still devout, but he did not always manage to pray five times a day. He seemed to have drifted from the absolutism of his family.

Omar grasped legal concepts surprisingly quick. When Wilson and Ahmad half-seriously told him he should study law, he showed something close to delight. Then he laughed darkly: He was unable to contemplate a future so far removed from Guantanamo, a future in which an "enemy combatant" was acquitted and became a lawyer. On the advice of Wilson and Ahmad, he wrote a note to the presiding officer at his first military hearing in April, refusing to participate in the proceedings until he was removed from solitary confinement: "With my respect to you, i'm boycotting thes persedures untel i be treated humainly and fair." ,p> Once Omar allowed himself to believe that he had acquired committed advocates, his life bent itself around his meetings with them. They had brought him back into the forward-moving world and reminded him who he was. His accounts of mistreatment emerged slowly. At the end of his first meeting with his lawyers, he mentioned, embarrassed, that he had been threatened with rape. He was convinced that Ahmad and Wilson would never return, and it suddenly occurred to him, during the interview's final moments, that this might be his last chance to speak to the world. It was easier to reveal something shameful to confessors he would never see again.

It took several more meetings for the facts to emerge. Although the U.S. government denies mistreating Omar, neither Wilson nor Ahmad ever doubted the truth of what he told them. They had read hundreds of pages of detainee accounts of torture that independently corroborated one another. A Swedish detainee described being held for a dozen hours at extremely cold temperatures and senselessly moved from cell to cell throughout the night. An Australian detainee described the use of frigid and stifling temperatures, short shackles and random beatings. A Pentagon inquiry confirmed detainee accounts of torture by sexual humiliation. A former Guantanamo interrogator described detainees being "shackled for hours and left to soil themselves while exposed to blaring music or the insistent meowing of a cat-food commercial." In an internal memo, an FBI agent described finding a detainee unconscious on the floor of a room "well over a hundred degrees . . . with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his own hair out throughout the night." The U.S. Army's own interrogation logs documented the treatment of a Saudi detainee who was interrogated in eighteen-hour sessions for forty-eight days, put on a leash and forced to bark like a dog, given intravenous fluids and locked in a room with no toilet, stripped and straddled and sexually derided by female guards, and subjected to a staged kidnapping that involved being tranquilized, blindfolded and flown to a fake destination.

There is no scientific evidence that such coercion is better than any other kind of interrogation; it is probably worse. SERE techniques were not designed to be used in the real world; they were designed to test the psychic endurance of Air Force pilots. When the FBI sent some of its best counterterrorism agents to Guantanamo soon after the camps opened, the agents chose to use what is known as rapport-based interrogation, which apparently worked. The FBI agents found the coercive tactics used by military intelligence both disgusting and stupid: The abusive treatment instantly destabilized detainees, making the information they provided unreliable as intelligence and useless in court.

By the time Omar's lawyers took his case, it was clear that the torture methods used at Guantanamo had been directly authorized by President Bush. In January 2002, the president's lawyer, Alberto Gonzales, working for the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, advised the president that nearly all forms of torture were legal. Physical abuse was not torture unless it generated the intensity of pain associated with "organ failure, impairment of bodily function or even death." Psychological methods were illegal only if they inflicted harm that endured for "months, or even years." Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved a new interrogation paradigm, and Gen. Geoffrey Miller instituted the same SERE techniques at Guantanamo that he would later bring to Abu Ghraib.

Rick Wilson and Muneer Ahmad have a lot of experience representing prisoners, mostly immigrant detainees and death-row inmates. "Nothing we've seen comes close to the experience of Guantanamo," says Ahmad. "Not just the treatment of detainees but the brute force of state power."

During the course of their research, the attorneys were struck by the overwhelming evidence that most of the detainees at Guantanamo are innocent. The CIA had pulled Abdurahman Khadr out of the camps not just because the detainees around him had become mentally unstable and uncommunicative, but because so few of them knew anything about Al Qaeda or the Taliban. During his debriefing, one of the first things Abdurahman told his CIA handlers was how utterly the United States had failed, in its military sweeps after the fall of the Taliban, to distinguish between the guilty and the innocent. In Afghanistan, the U.S. offered cash rewards for suspected Al Qaeda members that were sometimes equivalent to several years of local wages. The American military thus made every Arab-looking person in Afghanistan vulnerable to opportunists. Warlords rounded up people and brought them en masse to American authorities. Others were turned in to settle grudges, or because they had once associated with someone from Al Qaeda. U.S. intelligence apparently took criminals and mercenaries and underpaid soldiers at their word.

In his debriefing, Abdurahman Khadr told the CIA that only ten percent of the detainees at Guantanamo "are really dangerous." The rest, he said, "are people that don't have anything to do with it, don't even . . . understand what they're doing here." One innocent man, Abdurahman said, was given up by his own son for $5,000. Another detainee was nothing more than a drug user: Every time the MPs came around, he begged them for hashish: "He doesn't even know what he's doing here," Abdurahman said. "Truly a drug addict, not Al Qaeda at all."

One military-intelligence officer, speaking anonymously, told a reporter that more than seventy-five percent of the detainees at Guantanamo are innocent. When the government recently prepared Summaries of Evidence for its 517 detainees in an attempt to justify its "enemy combatant" designation, only eight percent were "definitively identified" as Al Qaeda fighters. Sixty-six percent have no definitive connection to Al Qaeda at all. The detention camps of Guantanamo Bay are filled with shepherds, taxi drivers, farmers, small businessmen, drug addicts, homeless people and children.

For Rick Wilson and Muneer Ahmad, this nasty truth led to an unnerving conclusion: After the invasion of Afghanistan, the Bush administration effectively kidnapped hundreds of innocent people because they looked like Arabs and shipped them to a detention facility designed to torture them nonstop and in perpetuity. If the president were tried in the Hague, the prosecution would have an easy case.

Before the Supreme Court extended the protection of the Geneva Convention to Guantanamo detainees, the government charged Omar Khadr with murder, attempted murder, conspiracy and aiding the enemy. The allegations were odd: Khadr was a soldier fighting in support of a national army. The Geneva Convention sensibly prohibits any government from charging enemy soldiers with murder for acting like soldiers. It is hard to say how the government will now reformulate its charges; it is hard to say how long Congress and the administration will spend designing tribunals that satisfy the Supreme Court. For the moment, however, Omar Khadr remains an enemy combatant and, therefore, subject to unlimited solitary confinement.

Ahmad and Wilson have filed motions in federal court seeking to enjoin the continuing torture and inhumane confinement of their client. Thus far, none has been granted. Except for a brief hiatus, Omar Khadr has been alone in a cell at Guantanamo Bay for close to four years. Four years is nearly a quarter of his life. Since he was caught, he has grown eight inches. It is nearly impossible for him to believe that he will ever be released, and his daily life remains filled with menace: He is so conditioned to abuse in captivity that he is incapable of believing he will ever be free of it.

A year and a half ago, Dr. Eric Trupin predicted that Omar Khadr would suffer serious permanent damage unless he was immediately moved into a humane detention facility, convinced that he was safe from all injury and provided with acute psychological care. Such a course of treatment, if ever administered, will come several years too late. It is possible that Omar's mental life will progressively fracture into suicide attempts, hallucinations and paranoia. Having lived out the final years of his adolescence in Guantanamo Bay, he has learned nothing about the conventions of adult life, but he has as deep an understanding of powerlessness as any person can.

In the summer of 2005, Omar joined 200 other detainees in a hunger strike. They were protesting their unlimited detention without due process. Within a few weeks, guards began to beat them and force-feed them through the nose with thick tubes. From the diary of Omar Deghayes, a detainee who participated in the strike: Omar Khadr is very sick in our block. He is throwing [up] blood. They gave him cyrum [serum] when they found him on the floor in his cell. Omar was carried to the hospital. As he was being moved back to his cell, he collapsed. The guards beat him.

The resolve of the strikers deteriorated, and the strike ended. No concessions were made.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11128331/follow_omar_khadr_from_an_al_qaeda_childhood_to_a_gitmo_cell

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Gee, this guy Omar is just

Gee, this guy Omar is just lucky to be alive. He killed a soldier in combat, so who gives a rip if he has to endure the pains and trials of being a terrorist prisoner. He landed himself in Guantanamo by throwing the grenade. I see nothing wrong with Omar having to endure what he's going through, considering what his kinsmen do to people who are actually innocent.

You're thinking just like the terrorists - sure you're not one?

Gee, it's a war and he's on the other side so he tries to kill some of ours. Oh, what a shock! The thing is, since he's our prisoner, we're not supposed to treat him like this. My grandfather was a physician and surgeon and as much as he would have liked to kill every Jap he saw, he still had to heal them during and after the second world war. You say this Omar is scum and deserves to suffer - you know what, they say the same about our boys and girls out there. Given the way we treat our prisoners, do you think we'll ever get any sympathy? Well - we do, because not everyone out there is a fanatical nutcase - take the case of that cute chick that the marines "rescued" from Bhagdad - what's her name? Oh, yeah, our marines were so heroic storming a hospital and terrorizing the folks there when they damn well knew the Iraq army had retreated from there. But - who cares - it's all great propaganda and the raid looked great on Fox News. They even made a movie out of it.

It doesn't matter how we treat our prisoners

Wake up and taste reality.. it doesn't matter how we treat our prisoners. Terrorists will still do what they want to do. This ain't world war II, and the Geneva convention should not apply to terrorists. Besides, little Omar is probably not as bad off as the article made him out to be. I'm just saying that Omar's suffering or discomfort, or whatever it is, is not bad enoough that we need to be concerned about it.

you should be in his shoes

Well, I hope you're subject to Omar's treatment one day since you approve so much of it. You can find out for yourself how little suffering and discomfort they have. Don't worry, Dubbyah's doing it right now - abducting US citizens to be tortured and so on - we only know of one case so far, but who would believe there aren't others.

Why do you sympathize with terrorists?

I don't have to worry about being in Omar's shoes, because I won't ever associate with terrorists. Nice try, but you can't make me feel bad for a terrorist. You have a deranged mind. The only people who are in Guantanamo are people who fought with the terrorists, so enough of your crap. You want us to make terrorists' lives more comfortable?

losalamos, you're an imbecile

It is you who sympathize with terrorists - you surely approve of their tactics. Besides, this 'Omar' isn't a terrorist. Like it or not, the Taliban fighters were the legitimate military force in Afganistan. Come on, tell me what terrorist activities he has been involved in. It is fools like you who see everyone else as a terrorist - gullibe pawns who will label any criminal "terrorist" because it takes too much effort to look for the truth. It's easy to see why you're so in love with Anne Coulter - you're one of those people who never think and like to be told what to believe. Now why don't you shut your mouth and sign up to go to the front? Never could stand people like you - all mouth and no action. Except of course when you think you can pick on someone because they can't fight back. Thanks to people like you, there are literally tens of thousands of people on the "terrorist watch list" who shouldn't be there. That sort of thing interferes with finding out who the real terrorists are. And thanks to people like you in the federal government there are hundreds of people at Gitmo who really don't beling there, and probably thousands in our secret concentration camps being tortured and murdered.

Right back at you, imbecile

Same goes for you, fool.

CammoBlammo's Law

I've noticed that Godwin's Law seems to be confirming itself again and again these days.

I've noticed another (possibly related) phenomenon and after much thought and consideration I've reduced my observation to another rule, CammoBlammo's Law:

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of somebody resorting to 'I know you are, you said you are so what am I?' as an argument approaches one."

Does "Same goes for you, fool" count?

--
A tidy house is the sign of a stolen computer.

It does just as much as Pinniped's comments count

Yeah, just as much as Pinniped's comments count. The fact of the matter is that he believes what he believes, and I believe what I believe. I think he's full of crap, and he thinks I'm full of crap. He thinks he is morally and intellectually superior, and I think he lacks common sense. That pretty much sums it up. We are at a hopeless impasse.

Common sense and CammoBlammo's Law

I can perfectly understand your reliance on common sense -- what you call common sense isn't that different from what my father in law calls common sense. The problem is that my (and apparently vees' and pinniped's and anticapitalista's and IntnsRed's and so on) idea of common sense is something completely different.

The idea that the obvious truth (which is closely related to common sense) isn't shared by other people is really quite frustrating. Why should we have to argue and prove something that is self evident? Believe me, I know your frustration from many a visit to my wife's family!

Yet I have also found that having to argue your own point means you really have to scrutinise it yourself. That's what happened to my family -- it was once obvious that Saddam, the terrorists and the boat people were all intent on wrecking the Australian way of life, but after a couple of heated discussions my father in law can now see that the West is as much to blame for the argy bargy going on as anyone. And if you told him he once thought otherwise he'd think you were going mental.

This is the great thing about a forum (appropriate or not) for the free exchange of ideas -- in debating the issues we understand our own points of view, which in my opinion is more important than correcting our opponent's obvious brain deadness. You might think you are at a hopeless impasse, but struggling with the ideas may give you the insight to break it. Heck, you might be seconds away from figuring out how to get world peace before next Tuesday!

But back to CammoBlammo's Law. When an argument gets heated, and attacks become personal the 'I know you are, you said you are, so what am I?' thing becomes far more insightful than it might otherwise appear.

--
A tidy house is the sign of a stolen computer.

boat people

I never could understand how a handful of boat people were going to ruin the "Australian way of life" - whatever that is. They are desperate people hoping for a better life, and with a large world population, poor education, and numerous corrupt governments out there we're going to see more and more of these people. It is certainly nothing new - the USA has had such people arriving by ship for over 150 years. We've also had the Mexicans crossing the border looking for a better life pretty much since the day we took Texas and Arizona from the Mexicans. The borders need to be controlled because no country can handle a large influx of desperate people with no skills to contribute to the society. So boo hoo - it's sad, but for the most part they need to be sent home. Threatening a captain of a vessel because he rescued such a bunch and wanted to drop them off so they can get some care is just cruel. The problem is with the legal system - there are lawyers who would happily argue to keep every one of them regardless of circumstances and the legal system sure offers plenty of opportunity for that; something is really askew when the legal system prevents authorities from doing the right thing which is to send the lot of them back. Of course there's no need for them to use smugglers now - they can all come in as hairdressers bound for the bush - no need to even speak english. In the meantime the bar is raised for genuine skilled people. Your minister for immigration is a bigger danger than the boat people.

haha

I know your type losalamos - you're one of those draft-dodging cowardly trailer trash who are quite happy to send your neighbors off to die but don't have the balls to go to the front yourself. So sign up and go or shut your hole. You have no idea what it's like. It's uncivilized brainless monkeys like you who make the world dangerous - you're every bit as bad as those terrorists that you claim are your enemies.

Have you served a tour of

Have you served a tour of duty? As far as I'm concerned, you're a worthless piece of crap. You have nothing to offer society other than your own deranged version of what is going on in the world.

I should add that I am not a draft-dodger since there has not been a draft in my lifetime. However, I have registered with the selective service. Have you? So, in your view, if you are not anti-war, you cannot support the war unless you are on the front-lines? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense... Nice try.

shut your hole and go already

So what have you done to support the boys on the front then? Were you at least involved with building some of the most sophisticated surveillance equipment on the planet? Or do you just figure you've paid your taxes so you've done your bit? We never should have been in Iraq but obviously the president has support from people like you. Now that we're there we're stuck cleaning up Dubbyah's mess. Billions of dollars and it's not helping this pretentious "war on terror". It's more of a war of terror - you'll never really appreciate what you're losing to Dubbyah until you see your friends and family disappear with the help of the thought police. I'd prefer that you be one of the first to disappear and experience the wonderful treatment we've given this Omar. Having enemies is one thing, but acting just like them is another thing altogether. In the meantime more reports are coming from our own government agencies and Canadian agencies as welland these reports say that we've got innocent people locked up and being tortured for Dubbyah's war.

What do you do to support

What do you do to support the boys on the front line Pinniped? I actually do work at a place where we do develop the most sophisticated equipment on the planet. What do you do during the day? Do you even pay any taxes? Or do you live off of government benefits?

you're funny

Since you mentioned you just signed up for Selective Service I assume you've just outgrown your diapers. So you do work at a big-deal place do you - sweeping the floors or scrubbing the toilets? Oh yeah, I live off government benefits - I just bought a mansion at the expense of the taxpayer. It's great to have the IRS paying me and not the other way around.

What do you do?

No, actually I work in research. What do you do?

really?

I can't believe you work in research. I'm the one who nags one set of scientists to improve things, then kicks the engineers around a bit to get what I want built. On one trip through New York I stopped a while to teach some of the engineers some new tricks - so now they can align and calibrate their systems much quicker and get their equipment out the door. That was certainly no fun time; these folks had so many orders they were working 12 hours each day including the weekends. A lot of people in my line of work are trying to get funding to build new sensors for 'stand-off' chemical detection - they're all squabbling over a small amount of money the government has pledged for such projects. In the meantime I go about my own business building new sensors for industry and using money from industry - when products turn up that are of interest to the military or the homeland security people they're welcome to it. Research concluded in just the past 2 years have made some really amazing stuff possible. I'm one of the people pushing new technology which would actually result in smaller, cheaper, better sensor systems. At the moment I'm trying to take the cost of one particular system from $300,000 to about $45,000.

So, what kind of explosive

So, what kind of explosive detectors do you know that are out there? What kinds of explosives can they detect?

to be or not to be (civilized)

This is certainly the crux of the matter. It is neither about being a 'liberal' or a 'concervative' (silly categories to begin with) or being 'soft' or 'hard' on 'terror' (one cannot be either towards a *tactic*). The point is one of basic CIVILIZATION.

After the events of WWII, most of the world came to accept certain basic fundamental norms which were not defined for sombody else's benefit, but for one nations *own* welfare. Civilized humanity came to realize that a number of things (such as torture) were de-basing and de-humanizing no matter when and where, and no matter against whom they would be used.

[smart counter-terrorists also know that they are wholly counterproductive - but this is a practical argument, not a civilizational one]

Reactions such as the one 'LosAlamos' has are reflective of the fact that an increasing number of citizens of the Empire are basically much closer spiritually and ethically to a Neanderthal or Cro-Magnon than to the rest of mankind.

Sure, other countries do practice torture, but how many countries actually make a POLICY of it? Sure, other countries violate the Geneva Conventions, but how many actually pass a law in their Parliaments approving this?

Even in clearly fascist regimes, which always use torture, nobody is proud of it and openly thinks that such practice is 'patriotic'.

Try to find a Soviet law authorizing torture? There are some clearly feudal countries (I think of Saudi Arabia) or some half-theocractic (like Israel) who try to legislate torture, but most of them try to do it covertly (a la Syria or Pakistan).

The ONLY nation on the face of this planet were a politician can speak up in defense of torture is the USA. That is one telling (non-)civilizational statement to make.

But then, there are more Americans in jail (in relative AND absolute numbers) than in the Soviet Gulag and its the only developed country in the world without a universal healthcare system, so what can one expect from this Neanderthal-like kulture?!?!

Things were not always like this. In many ways the USA did lead the world in its values, like the First Amendment. Also, there were very few countries in which the people feared their cops less that white Americans (for others, it was worse than in most other countries).

Now what is happening is a basic, fundamental rift. On issues such as the death penalty, torture, kidnappings, the Geneva Conventions, the Law of War, the International Criminal Court, Kyoto, child labor, International Law, the United Nations, use of force, legal oversight of corporate policies, labor laws, and many many other issues it has truly become like Baby-Bush said: "you are either with us or you are against us". And the best I can tell, everybody is AGAINST the US with the possible exception of the UK (which is USA like only internationally) and Israel (also solely on international issues, at least for Jews; for the Arabs it is more like the Apertheid rule in South Africa with many elements of genocide thrown in).

The fact that the regime in Washington speaks of "homeland" makes this impression of other-worldness, of aliens from some other distant planet, even worse.

This being said, I do also see that there are at least two categories of Americans which are very much opposed to this process: those who know their own history well, and those who have been abroad (without being in combat fatigues that is). Once they become exposed to the real world, they actually feel much happier (sounds silly - but it is literally true), much more aware of their own values.

I still have hopes that this sad process of civilizational involution will be stopped, but when I look at the hominids sitting in their SUVs (some with TVs inside) I think that this is going to take a long, long while

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

don't rule out the boys in blue and khaki...

We've got a lot of good people out in the field. Many soldiers oppose the war, but they must fight because that's their job. Some oppose it because it's so incovenient for them - not terribly good soldiers. Some oppose it for much better reasons than that. But if you're in the Navy and charged with supplying food and munitions to the front you do your job because it's your brothers and sisters out there and you don't want them to all die - you don't do the job because you think the president is a wonderful guy. People in the military service have little say - only the civilians back home can bring them back. (But it's far too late now; leaving Iraq would result in a situation far worse than when Saddam was chief.) I've met a number of surgeons from the USAF Medical Corps who were also veterans of Vietnam. Many of them would throw away their issued handguns as soon as they were out in the field because they didn't want the enemy to see them as any sort of threat. They've also treated a lot of the enemy, and numerous civilians caught up in the fighting. Some said they'll stick by the Hippocratic oath and others said oath or not, if you've got a gun the enemy would probably shoot first then ask questions. For some strange reason you rarely see the good guys in the war - what we've been seeing is either the propaganda machine or the bad guys. You don't hear much about the soldiers who've turned in or arrested other soldiers involved in atrocities, but it happens. We even have military lawyers fighting for better treatment of our prisoners. You can bet there's not a day that goes by that people don't call them unpatriotic.

If you're all gung-ho you can start shooting medics on the other side ... but the gloves are off then and they go for your own medics. If you're the invader rather than the defender you're really screwed then. Wars have always had rather strange terms of engagement, but they're there for a reason - play a guerilla war and you'll find the enemy will engage you on your own terms and you only end up with far more casualties on your side. So the great danger in Dubbyah's cowboy shoot-em-up is that there are a hell of a lot more people who have more reason to want to attack us. What do we do after the next terrorist attack - launch nukes? Dubbyah might just think that's a good idea. We certainly can't spare any more troops for a conventional war - they're overworked and demoralized as is.

You are totally right, and

You are totally right, and thanks for correcting me. What I mostly had in mind was the fact that a lot of US servicemen actually stay on their bases for most, if not all, of their stay abroad and when they leave their bases they are not treated by the locals as, say, an American globe-trotter would be.

Also - I have to point out here that since this war is clearly illegal, those participating in it make themselves accomplices of the crime of agression (which, in terms of international law, is not an insult, but the crime of illegally attacking another country). I think that a person of honor ought to refuse to be sent to such wars just as the many Israeli soliders who refuse to fight civilians or attack Lebanon have done.

I have actually spend a lot of time with US officers and NCOs both in training and in work. They are, generally, very good people with a strong sense of honor (at least the folks I met which were mainly Air Force and Navy). The most obtuse ones were, in my experience, the Marines and CIA people. But I really do not mean to pass a blanket judgement on folks in uniform, in particular those in combat. On the other hand, these are NOT conscripts and I therefore do NOT think they should be particularly "supported" either (as in "support our troops").

The bottom line is when you are told by the Emperor "you are either with us or against us" (and by 'us' he for sure does *not* mean the American people, but rather this regime) I think that people have little choice: they do have to decide with whom they are, even if that choice is made harder by the uniform you wear.

Cheers!

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

Gitmo Absurd

Wait... Could it be that Gitmo ain't so bad?

Thanks defendfreedom for posting some counter-facts to further enlighten us all in this discussion. I did find it hard to believe that Gitmo was as bad as Vees and Pinniped are convinced it is.

I hear the German concentration camps were all the rage...

Yes, the Jews really enjoyed the German camps - there was nothing quite like them. Well, that's the sort of crap you see on the Jew-haters websites and that website posted above is no different really. It reminds me of all those articles about those poor people who leach off the welfare funds - yeah, all those single mothers who are high-school dropouts are really living the easy life. And those Gitmo detainees - the few who have been released so far just can't stop telling the world what a wonderful place it was and how much they love the good ol' U.S. of A.

We've seen videos of those camps

Please don't compare Gitmo to the German concentration camps. Until you show me video evidence that Gitmo is anything like the German camps, your insinuation that it is is hideous. It is premature to say the least, since you base your opinion on what detainees say. I'm sure that detainees are willing to spout off whatever crap they can think up, but it seems that their weight gain proves that they are at least well-fed. You need to check your sources I think.

Hang on, what are we trying to achieve here?

I'm not sure I follow this.

The United States is supposed to be the land of the free and the shining light of democracy to all those who would shake off their oppression and bondage. It is the example par excellence.

Yet when confronted by an attack on that hard won freedom the US responds by stripping its own citizens of those freedoms, allowing them to be be incarcerated and tortured without the usual recourse to the court system.

When it's pointed out that 'enemy combatants' (regardless of citizenship) are being denied basic human rights, and parallels are drawn with the Nazi concentrations camps, the only response is, 'Bollocks. We're better than the Nazis, and it's insulting to the Jews to suggest otherwise.'

(And it's not just former inmates who claim Gitmo isn't the paradise some make it out to be: according to this story former guards are telling Gitmo stories too.)

I would think that a nation so enamoured with the ideals of Truth, Justice and the American Way would aim to exemplify those ideals to the very best of its ability. Instead, it uses history's worst scoundrels as a yardstick and says, 'We're not that bad. After all, we're better than the Nazis AND Saddam!'

America could be the greatest nation this planet has ever seen. Why does it settle for not being the worst?
--
A tidy house is the sign of a stolen computer.

Blind liberal rage

I personally wouldn't have brought the Nazi's into this issue, but some people here for some reason are convinced that Gitmo approaches that atrocity. They seem to be band-wagoneers to me, as they are so willing to believe every report that comes out in favor of their ideas about Gitmo.

Truth sometimes takes time to uncover and sort out. Some people (Vees and Pinniped) just don't have the patience to wait for it, especially when they operate on 2-year election cycles, and love to hate the other end of the political spectrum. Either that, or they latch on to what they want to believe is truth and blindly denounce all other conflicting sources. Seems pretty blind to me.

a cartoon vs. real life

Since when did posting a link to a cartoon turn into "posting counter-facts to enlighted us all"?!?!

Losalamos - you probably are the most pathetically stupid, ignorant and arrogant cretin I have met on the net in a long, long while. You can claim to be a rocket scientist or the president of MENSA, as far as I am concerned, you are little more than a mindless ignoramus singing the praise of another equally pathetic mindless ignoramus. Talking to you guys is just about as interesting as trying to reason with a petri dish filled with E Coli.

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

Vees.... look a little below the cartoon

Did you look a little beyond the cartoon and find the link to a report on an interview with someone who works in Gitmo? I'd guess not, since you seem to be a little short-sighted. Thanks for writing what amounts to your own self-commentary in that last post.

So the nonsense below is the

So the nonsense below is the 'factual' part?!
Peuleeze... I *have* read the stuff below and its even more lame than the cartoon which at least has the excuse of being designed to amuse, and not to intelligently discusss something. Do you realize how outlandish these claims are, about Gitmo being 'not so bad'?
Do you realize that what happens in Baghram, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo is not essentially different from what happens in ALL US jails/prisons? Just look at the Human Rights Watch report on rape in US jails used as a discipilinary punishment, look at the prevalent "you will share a cell with Bubba who will make you his girlfriend" threat in all US movies, look at the conditions at the so-called "SuperMax" prisons, etc. But more relevantly, realize that the entire world knows about this. To think that you can still deny this is like being member of the Flat Earth Society.
Even in the US there have been numerous books written about the 'no impact' torture methods developed by the CIA over several decades (with assistance of the Brits, BTW) and that is also well known.
I know, I know - the regime in Washington speaks about 'a few bad apples' to try to deny the obvious fact that these are POLICIES and not 'local initiatives' of some kind. The stuff which all testinomies about all these detention facilities describe is *standard fare* in US detention, whether outside the country or inside.
Lastly, calling a cartoon 'factual enlightement' is pathetic, and is not somehow less so because it is accompanied with the same kind of 'arguments' and 'logic' which the so-called 'Holocaust deniers' use. No real argument needs the support of a cartoon to make a case, to induce the 'correct' conclusion in a reader's mind. Using cartoon to get a point across is something which the Nazis and the Soviets did, and now something which sub-fascists like you guys do.
I take back what I wrote above: an E Coli Petri dish is actually more interesting than what you and your pals come up with, unless one desires to day-dream about a flat earth and the resort like conditions in US detention facilities...

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

You only believe what you want to believe

I don't think you can draw conclusions like you have done based solely on your own sources. You end up with a case of my sources vs. your sources, and frankly in something that is a politically charged as this Gitmo issue, who can you believe for certain? This is NOT like the Nazi concentration camps. We've got a pretty complete understanding of the history of those concentration camps. We have yet to see and hear the full story of Gitmo, so to say that you KNOW what is going on in Gitmo is premature at best.

I find it surprising that you are so willing to gobble up whatever source floats your boat, and denounce any other source that don't. THAT reflects poorly on your own judgement, and I would say that you then approach the E Coli Petri dish, if that's how you like to put it.

You have to consider the possibility that Gitmo isn't all that bad, since the BEST you've got now are conflicting reports. So, get off your little Gitmo-Torture band wagon and start to think rationally about all the reports. Do you have any evidence beyond conflicting these conflicting reports? Do you have photos and/or videos like we got from Abu Ghraib? If you do, please share, and I'm willing to say that Gitmo is what you say it is. Until then, I'll reserve judgement until there's further light shed on the matter.

denying the obvious is futile, stupid and dishonest

Again - you are ignoring what I really said which was that Gitmo is not a fluke case, or a case of 'bad apples' - it is just one part of a SYSTEM of US torture used not only on 'enemy combattants' but also inside the US. Did you know that the folks who did the now famous photos in Abu Ghraib had done the same kind of things as prison screws? Reports that Gitmo is a luxury resort are NOT consistent with normal US detention practices whereas reports which speak of torture at Gitmo are fully consistent with normal US practices.

Also - use common sense (if you can). WHY would Dubya object to the no torture McCain bill, then WHY would he make a signature statement about how it will be implemented (or, rather, not) why does the US Congress not agree that the common article 3 of the Geneva Conventions applies to US detainees, WHY would the White House issue a retroactive amnetsy to US interrogators and WHY does the US hold a worldwide network of secret prisons and WHY would the US use 'extraordinary renditions' if it did not use torture (both directly or, in hard cases, with 'partner' countries).

If all that brings you to conclude that Gitmo might be a luxury resort you have more E Coli in the rest of your body and brain than in your colon :-)

Your lack of intellectual honesty is truly phenomenal. Not content to cheerlead for your sub-fascist Emperor and his administration, you deny the obvious over, and over and over again.

I am done trying to prove anything to you. You *choose* to repeat lies and that I have no patience for.

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

Could it be that prison is a bad place to be?

SHOCKING!!!!

So we must reform prisons to please the world?

I thought the point of prison was to be a deterrant, not a nice, comfortable place to live, and if inmates want to make prison a worse place to live, then that's their problem. We can't make them be nice people--after all forcing someone to be nice in prison might approach your definition of torture, and we just can't deprive them of their basic human right to be bad people.

So, you are now comparing Gitmo to U.S. prisons (since the comparison to Nazi concentration camps just falls apart). Are there reports of muslims raping muslims in Gitmo?

spoken like a true Neanderthal

Nope, you need not do anything to 'please the world'. You should strive to educate and civilize *your* country and its population until everybody realizes that torture is de-humanizing for the torturer at least as much as it is to the tortured person and that true patriotism in today's America is stading up against the fascist mindset which makes you hated all over the planet.

The USA should stop torturing any human beings not for the sake of these 'others', but for its OWN sake.

As for Gitmo vs US prisons vs Nazi concentration camps the issue here is not the means used, but the culture which makes it possible to treat human beings as if they were beasts with no God given dignity or universal right. But then, I do not expect you to understand any of that. You truly have the moral categories and intellectual depth of an E Coli sample, maybe an amoeba (at best)

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

All lot to rest on your assumptions...

All based on your assumption that there is rampant torture going on at Gitmo. Define torture, and then show incontrovertible proof that torture is occuring. Until then, your assumptions amount to your own level of E Coli-ism.

I can't believe how stuck up you are and many times you'll use that lame E Coli joke as if it hurts my feelings. I know you're just a weak, liberal mind. You forget the past, and dwell in the present, which for you is misery because your political agenda of rampant liberalism is quashed in D.C. right now. You're ignorant in your own right, probably a bastard child, and a worthless, driveling, weak-link member of our society (how's that on the Vees insult-o-meter?)

You should move to Afghanistan where you can make friends with the friendly Taliban, and see how far your beliefs get you in the world. It's so easy for you to spout off all your babblings from the comforts of you relatively safe home... which is relatively safe because some people are willing to actually try to do something for security's sake.

Vees, grow up and get some real analytical and logical thinking skills--the kind that actually amount to something in the real world.

Again... can we please see some solid proof of torture so that Vees' posts amount to more than liberal, Bush-hating conjecture? I mean... let's see videos of the supposed uncivilized torture that's going on. Conflicting reports on www blogs just don't add up to proof. Hey, we had photos of Abu Ghraib; where are the photos of the Gitmo outrage? They have to be out there, because Vees is sure that it's happening, and if Vees says it, then it's gotta be true. If you don't agree with him, then you are just E Coli.

I yield to the true pro, great thinker and analyst

You're ignorant in your own right, probably a bastard child, and a worthless, driveling, weak-link member of our society (how's that on the Vees insult-o-meter?)

Indeed, terribly, terribly offensive... and my feelings would be deeply hurt if.. if only any of it was factual of course ;-)

I now yield to your superior 'real world analytical and logical thinking skills' (which, of course, I envy you!) and, bowing my head down in shame, I withdraw from this most interesting conversation.

Cheers!

VS

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

No evidence? You give up?

So, there's no video or photographic evidence? I guess we will have to wait and see what history has to say about Gitmo years down the road then.

And again the left rants and rants

Zzz, the comments to my link are:

-Rants
-False accusations
-False assumptions
-More rants

I repeat my statment; it is funny to see how the left again and again tries to terrorize, surpress and intimidate those with other views. Every time we ask painful or unconvienant questions leftist end up getting angry (see Clinton), start shouting or organize a rally.

pinniped also fits this profile perfectly:

Quote:
Well, I hope you're subject to Omar's treatment one day since you approve so much of it.

Quote:

losalamos, you're an imbecile

Quote:
Thanks to people like you, there are literally tens of thousands of people on the "terrorist watch list" who shouldn't be there.

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I know your type losalamos - you're one of those draft-dodging cowardly trailer trash who are quite happy to send your neighbors off to die but don't have the balls to go to the front yourself.

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Since you mentioned you just signed up for Selective Service I assume you've just outgrown your diapers. So you do work at a big-deal place do you - sweeping the floors or scrubbing the toilets?

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Yes, the Jews really enjoyed the German camps - there was nothing quite like them.

@losalamos
Please try to maintain neutral and don't give in to these haressments by doing the same.

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