Israel's "right to exist" - what are we talking about?

The question of Israel's "right to exist" (or lack thereof) has been gradually taking center stage in the discussions about the future of the Middle-East. Ahmadinejad said that the Israeli *regime* will disappear as the Soviet one did. Hamas stubbornly refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist. The USA and Europe seem to consider that such a recognition is an absolute prerequisite for any dealings with Hamas. Bolton want to charge Ahmadinejad at the UNSC for calling for the "destruction of Israel" (even though this is not quite what Ahmedinejad said). Anyway - I would be very interested in hearing the arguments of our forum participants in favor of, or opposed to, the concept of a "right to exist" and, by extension, about the right to exist of the current state Israel (and *not* of the Jewish people as Jews have lived in the region long before the creation of the Zionist state and because most Jews live outside Israel anyway).

To launch the discussion, here are tow opinions on this issue:

A Moral Judgment is Called For
On Israel's "Right to Exist"

By JOHN V. WHITBECK

Now that the Palestinian civil war long sought by Israel, the U.S. and the EU appears on the verge of breaking out, it may be timely to examine the justification put forward by Israel, the U.S. and the EU for their collective punishment of the Palestinian people in retaliation for their having made the "wrong" choice in last January's democratic election -- the refusal of Hamas to "recognize Israel" or to "recognize Israel's existence" or to "recognize Israel's right to exist".

These three verbal formulations have been used by media, politicians and even diplomats interchangeably, as though they mean the same thing. They do not.

"Recognizing Israel" or any other state is a formal legal/diplomatic act by a state with respect to another state. It is inappropriate -- indeed, nonsensical -- to talk about a political party or movement, even one in a sovereign state, extending diplomatic recognition to a state. To talk of Hamas "recognizing Israel" is simply sloppy, confusing and deceptive shorthand for the real demand being made.

"Recognizing Israel's existence" is not a logical nonsense and appears on first impression to involve a relatively straightforward acknowledgement of a fact of life -- like death and taxes. Yet there are serious practical problems with this formulation. What Israel, within what borders, is involved? The 55% of historical Palestine recommended for a Jewish state by the UN General Assembly in 1947? The 78% of historical Palestine occupied by Israel in 1948 and now viewed by most of the world as "Israel" or "Israel proper"?

The 100% of historical Palestine occupied by Israel since June 1967 and shown as "Israel" on maps in Israeli schoolbooks? Israel has never defined its own borders, since doing so would, necessarily, place limits on them. Still, if this were all that were being demanded of Hamas, it might be possible for it to acknowledge, as a fact of life, that a State of Israel exists today within some specified borders.

"Recognizing Israel's right to exist", the actual demand, is in an entirely different league. This formulation does not address diplomatic formalities or simple acceptance of present realities. It calls for a moral judgment.

There is an enormous difference between "recognizing Israel's existence" and "recognizing Israel's right to exist". From a Palestinian perspective, the difference is in the same league as the difference between asking a Jew to acknowledge that the Holocaust happened and asking him to acknowledge that it was "right" that the Holocaust happened -- that the Holocaust (or, in the Palestinian case, the Nakba) was morally justified.

To demand that Palestinians recognize "Israel's right to exist" is to demand that a people who have for almost 60 years been treated, and continue to be treated, as sub-humans publicly proclaim that they ARE sub-humans -- and, at least implicitly, that they deserve what has been done, and continues to be done, to them. Even 19th century U.S. governments did not require the surviving Native Americans to publicly proclaim the "rightness" of their ethnic cleansing by the Pale Faces as a condition precedent to even discussing what reservation might be set aside for them -- under economic blockade and threat of starvation until they shed whatever pride they had left and conceded the point.

Some believe that Yasser Arafat did concede the point in order to buy his ticket out of the wilderness of demonization and earn the right to be lectured directly by the Americans. In fact, in his famous statement in Stockholm in late 1988, he accepted "Israel's right to exist in peace and security". This formulation, significantly, addresses the /conditions/ of existence of a state which, as a matter of fact, exists. It does not address the existential question of the "rightness" of the dispossession and dispersal of the Palestinian people from their homeland to make way for another people coming from abroad.

The original conception of the formulation "Israel's right to exist" and of its utility as an excuse for not talking to any Palestinian leadership which still stood up for the fundamental rights of the Palestinian people are attributed to Henry Kissinger, the grand master of diplomatic cynicism. There can be little doubt that those states which still employ this formulation do so in full consciousness of what it entails, morally and psychologically, for the Palestinian people and for the same cynical purpose -- as a roadblock against any progress toward peace and justice in Israel/Palestine and as a way of helping to buy more time for Israel to create more "facts on the ground" while blaming the Palestinians for their own suffering.

However, many private citizens of good will and decent values may well be taken in by the surface simplicity of the words "Israel's right to exist" (and even more easily by the other two shorthand formulations) into believing that they constitute a self-evidently reasonable demand and that refusing such a reasonable demand must represent perversity (or a "terrorist ideology") rather than a need to cling to their self-respect and dignity as full-fledged human beings which is deeply felt and thoroughly understandable in the hearts and minds of a long-abused people who have been stripped of almost everything else that makes life worth living. That this is so is evidenced by polls showing that the percentage of the Palestinian population which approves of Hamas' steadfastness in refusing to bow to this humiliating demand by their enemies, notwithstanding the intensity of the economic pain and suffering inflicted on them by the Israeli and Western siege, substantially exceeds the percentage of the population which voted for Hamas in January.

It may not be too late to focus decent minds around the world on the unreasonableness -- indeed, the immorality -- of this demand and of the verbal formulation on which it is based, whose use and abuse have already caused so much misery and threaten to cause more.

John V. Whitbeck, an international lawyer, is author of "The World According to Whitbeck". He can be reached at:

+++++++

The United States cannot achieve its goals in the Middle East unless it deals directly with the Arab-Israeli conflict. And then goes on to say that the US must encourage discussions and so on, but restricting and allowing Palestinians to participate, but only those who accept Israel's right to exist. OK, those are the only Palestinians who can participate. What about Israelis who accept Palestine's right to exist? Well, no point in mentioning them, because there probably aren't any.

And, in fact, there shouldn't be any. No state has a right to exist. It's obvious. In fact, the whole concept, right to exist, as far as I'm aware -- somebody should -- it's a good research project for someone -- to my knowledge, that concept was created in the 1970s when the Arab States and the PLO accepted, formally accepted -- PLO tacitly, the Arab States formally, the major ones -- formally accepted Israel's right to exist within secure and recognized borders, borrowing the wording of the major UN resolution, UN 242. So it became necessary to raise the barrier to prevent negotiations diplomacy and to allow expansion instead.

And here comes right to exist, which, of course, nobody is going to accept. It means accepting not only the fact of the expulsion of Palestinians, but also its legitimacy. No state in the world is ever going to accept that, any more than Mexico accepts the -- it recognizes the United States, but it does not recognize the legitimacy of the US conquest of half of Mexico -- outlandish.

But even if we reduce it from the crazy notion of right to exist to just recognizing Palestine, how many -- who -- recognizing Israel, suppose we limit Palestinians to those who recognize Israel, which Israelis recognize Palestine? Does the United States recognize Palestine? I mean, I won't run through the history here, but for 30 years, the US and Israel have, with rare exceptions, been unilaterally preventing the establishment of a broad international consensus on a two-state settlement. I mean, they're willing now, in the last couple of years, only the last couple of years, to accept a very truncated Palestine that's dismembered, surrounded -- no chance of viable existence. Maybe they'll recognize that. A couple of Bantustans, but not any viable state.

Noam Chomsky, professor of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology speaking last weekend at an event sponsored by Massachusetts Global Action.

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Israel exists without anyone's permission.

Vees,

Israel exists. It, like you, doesn't need permission from anyone.

Do you have the stomach to kill six million + people to see that it doesn't exist?
The jews won't just die. You will also be responsible for the tens, if not hundreds of millions, that will die as the jewish state,in it's death throes, releases the Golem at Dimona.
I don't think you have the ability to commit mass murder but your friend Ahmedinejad does. When he gets his bomb, he will. The one million palestinians within the state of Israel will share a jewish fate.
You know more about this than I. How many will die in Gaza and the Gaza Strip from an Iranian bomb? When the Golem screams, how many will die?

"Our right to exist--have you ever heard of such a thing? Would it enter the mind of any Briton or Frenchman, Belgian or Dutchman, Hungarian or Bulgarian, Russian or American, to request for its people recognition of its right to exist? Mr. Speaker: We were granted our right to exist by the God of our fathers at the glimmer of the dawn of human civilization four thousand years ago. Hence, the Jewish people have an historic, eternal and inalienable right to exist in this land, Eretz Israel, the land of our forefathers. We need nobody's recognition in asserting this inalienable right. And for this inalienable right, which has been sanctified in Jewish blood from generation to generation, we have paid a price unexampled in the annals of nations. Mr. Speaker: From the Knesset of Israel, I say to the world, our very existence per se is our right to exist!"
Menachem Wolfovich Begin

Israel exists without anyone's permission.

Once again a total inability to look beyond Sky/Fox news as to what is really going on in Israel and the Middle East.

Should the state of Israel exist? Should it be destroyed?

My opinion is that it should be destroyed. Israel is NOT like any other modern state. (actually it is like Apartheid South Africa, and the early days of the Americas). It is a settler state, set up with the support of the imperialists (USA/UK) based on the systematic oppression of the Palestinians. Anyone who has read beyond apologia for Zionism understands this.

It is still true today that the "Law of Return" exists ie any Jew from anywhere in the world can go and settle in Israel and become a citizen, however a Palestinian born in the area pre-1948 and expelled, cannot return.

Destroying Israel does NOT mean murdering the 6 million or so Jews who live there. The problem is NOT Judaism, but Zionism. They are completely different. Just like destroying apartheid in South Africa didn't mean and didn't lead to the anihilation of the white minority. Nor did the destruction of the USSR, Yugoslavia lead to mass murder of its citizens.

The solution, at least in the short term, is a secular Palestinian state where all citizens, gentiles and Jews have equal rights within the same state. Ultimately, IMHO, the only long-lasting solution is socialism across the whole Arab World (and not only of course)

BTW:
So, jaclo(w)n, where are the Iranians hiding that nuclear bomb? In the same place as Saddam hid his weapons of mass destruction? 3 years on and they still haven't been found.

anticapitalista

"Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it."

Socialism without Stalin

anticapitalista,
"Destroying Israel does NOT mean murdering the 6 million or so Jews who live there."
That's a statement that even you don't believe. Imagine a bunch of anti-greeks deciding Greece must go. The Greek warriors blood still runs through your veins. Would you give up your country? You are at a disadvantage. Unlike the jews, you don't have a Golem.

"Ultimately, IMHO, the only long-lasting solution is socialism across the whole Arab World (and not only of course)"
You are probably right but how do you and I and Jack London keep Socialism from being hijacked by the likes of Joe Stalin?
If we were to kill G_d, most of the worlds problems would disappear. Are you up for that?

The Iranians don't have but they are working on the bomb. As Vees says, they have fine engineers.

"Destroying Israel does NOT

"Destroying Israel does NOT mean murdering the 6 million or so Jews who live there."
That's a statement that even you don't believe. - jaclon.

Actually I do believe it. Israel is a theocratic state, a racist state that would not exist without US financial aid. Take away that aid and Israel as a state in its present form would die.

"Would you give up your country?" - jaclon

This is why the Palestinians are fighting Israel. Israel is the occupier of stolen Palestinian land.

On a broader scale, I don't have a country. I am a citizen of the world who happens to be living at the moment in a place that is now called Greece, in a city that less than 100 years ago was part of the Ottoman Empire, and up to 1912 (liberation from the Ottomans) had more Jews in the city than Greeks. In fact up until 1942 there were approximately 60,000 Jews living in the city, but the whole Jewish population was exterminated as they were rounded up and sent to the concentration camps.

Nations are modern constructs (if you like from the beginnings of capitalism), as is Nationalism and nationhood.
There is nothing "natural" about nations at all.
There is no "warrier spirit" running through my blood or anyone else's for that matter that connects the ancient past to the present. This is all ideology to justify the existing state of things and to bind people to the idea of a nation as if all Greeks, Germans, Americans whoever have more in common with their "own people" than with others. I reject this. I have more in common with US/English/Italian/Turkish workers than I have with Greek bosses.

Forgot to mention. You are not a socialist jaclon.

anticapitalista

"Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it."

"Destroying Israel does NOT

Didn't WWII prove there was no guarantee that Jews could survive in Europe? If establishing a Jewish state is off the table, then what are the other options?

My point is not that kicking the Palestinians off their land was justified, just that WWII created an intractable problem.

"Destroying Israel does NOT

WWII doesn't prove that Jews were unsafe in Europe at all. It proves how barbaric fascism was/is. In most of Europe, up until the rise of fascism, Jews and gentiles, on the whole, lived quite happily together, not only in Europe, but in the Middle East too.
The Zionists used the tragedy of the holocaust to argue that the only solution for Jews was/is to set up their "own" state. Before 1945, let's not forget, the Zionists were in the MINORITY amongst Jews, especially European ones, and let us also not forget that some Zionists (The Jewish Board of Deputies) have a lot of explaining to do about collaborating with the Nazis.

http://www.lastsuperpower.net/docs/nzc1introduction

What was a solution? Allowing Jews to settle wherever they wanted, the USA, UK, Palestine with equal rights as the 'locals'.

anticapitalista

"Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it."

Right again

"Forgot to mention. You are not a socialist jaclon."
Once again, you are absolutely right. I toyed with the idea when I was thirteen but realized that communism, socialism, and capitalism is the manner in which the oligarchy controls us. Do you really want to be controlled?
I'm so sorry you were forced from your home and your country. That would explain your emphathy for the palestinians that were conned into leaving theirs.

why not to destroy ignorance?

Quote:
Nor did the destruction of the USSR, Yugoslavia lead to mass murder of its citizens.
Quote ends.

This alone tells that anticapitalista knows very little about reality. Just a purified ignorance amd negligence.
Anyway, the discussion should not be shifted to the right of Jews to exist. The question is if the Israel has a right to exist. Of course it has - as recognized by international community, or if you will, by the majority of the international comunity. Following anticapitalista's logic a state that "is NOT like any other modern state" should be destroyed. I can imagine this doctrine being pursued... OK, that is well in line with the intention of certain deeply mentally disturbed individuals to wipe out the human species out of the Earth's surface.

Quote
My opinion is that it should be destroyed.
Quote ends

Surely this is a clear declaration of intention of war.
The jews that make up Israel (I'm afraid also some Palestinians inside of it) will not ask anticapitalista if their state has a right to exist. They will simply strike back.
My suggestion is:
anticapitalista should be destroyed.
That will save a lot of human lives and prevent many problems if he and the likes indeed try to destroy Israel.

why not to destroy ignorance?

You obviously have problems reading what has been written You state that
"Anyway, the discussion should not be shifted to the right of Jews to exist"
and then later
"OK, that is well in line with the intention of certain deeply mentally disturbed individuals to wipe out the human species out of the Earth's surface"

Once again.
States have come and gone throughout history. Some were destroyed through invasion, violence others simply declined.
What is hard to understand about that?
The British Empire, fortunately, is no more. The apartheid state is no more. Rhodesia is no more. The Stalinist USSR is no more. Czechoslovakia is more. Indochina is no more. The Aztec empire is no more. The list goes on.

Do you know that the Black civil rights movement in the USA in the 1920's called for the setting up of an independent black state in the USA? The reason argued was so that blacks would be safe from redneck racism. No one in the "recognised international community" supported that.

Oh and what about Woodrow Wilson's "rights of nations to self-determination"? Ok for European ones, but not Arab states like the Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq etc etc.

So, again, the destruction of the STATE OF ISRAEL IS NOT THE SAME AS WIPING OUT THE JEWS. and is doesn't necessarily have to be done through war. It COULD even self-implode (though I doubt it, unless the USA stops it's 'funding'. If that were to happen then Israel's economy would collapse and its military might as a result od this economic collapse would decline)

anticapitalista

"Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it."

violence and terror in the name of tolerance, LOL!

It is truly amazing our supporters of Israel cannot argue anything without threats (no matter how hollow) against those who disagree. Jaclon warned me that I risked "loosing it all", our friend Andrej tells me to be careful what I say or my health will suffer, and he now openly advocates "destroying" you. So what else is new?!

That kind of attitude towards dissenting opinions is the trademark of all the totalitarians whether on the 'right' or on the 'left'. First, they are fully aware of their intellectual inadequacy - they *hate* intellectuals - and they are frustrated by it. Second, since they feel inadequate their try to repress this sense by venting their anger with empty threats (empty until one of them rednecks actually get a modicum of power over anyone - think of the screws in jails, seargents in boot-camp, or half-litterate cops stopping what they believe is a 'bad guy'). This is the kind of folks which Hitler could recruit in breweries or which served as the basis for Stalin's thugs (Lenin and Trotsky also used them, but mixed in with some clearly intellectually capable people).

You know what they call a police baton in Russia? A "demokratizator" or "democratizer" as in the "restoration of democracy" by Eltsin's tanks in 1993. Smashing a dissenter's face with a club is their idea of a "democratic dialogue" and frankly logically arguing with that kind of people is probably futile. One needs either intelligence or a conscience to be amendable to factual and logical reasoning, preferably both.

So let them spew their threats (safely at home behing their keyboards and knowing that their governments will not blacklist them for making threats to 'bad people') and just ignore them. Its not like they make a difference (at least not until they come out in force and large numbers).

What they fail to realize is that threats only scare cowards to begin with. Chase the cowards away, and who is left: those who do not fear that 'petty thug' kind of mentality. (From personal experience I can tell you that nobody runs as fast as these wannabe "tough guys").

Have a great day anticapitalista!

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

some perspective might be a good idea

Guys, I had hoped that we could steer clear of WWII, genocides, the obligatory six million figure and the like. The issue of the right to exist or not for a country is not new. Please remember those:

Yugoslavia: no right
Kurdistan: no right
Eritrea: no right
Chechnia: no right
Bosnia: right
Croatia: right
Macedonia: right
Montenegro: right
Urkaine: right
Kosovo: right (probably)
Confederation of American States: no right
USA: right
Iroquois Confederacy: no right
Lybian Arab Jamahirya: kind of right
East Timor: right
Palestine: no right
future "Scattered Palestinian Banthustans": right (just a little)
Okinawa: no right
Taiwan: right, but lets not anger Peking with this
Tibet: no right
etc. etc. etc.

In Israel's case, there are many options besides "killing millions of Jews":

1) a one-man one-vote multi-ethnics state comprising all of modern Israel and all of the Occupied Territories.
2) a Swiss-style "two states" confederation
3) a unitary with an Arab majority in which the Jewish population would enjoy exactly the same right as the ones enjoyed by Israeli Arabs today

The current Israeli state is defining itself as a "Jewish" state, i.e. either an ethnic state or a religious state or a mix of both. It also deliberately does not define its borders which, depending on whom you speak to, can range from the so-called 1967 border to the variant shown on the Israeli flag: from the Nile river to the Eurphrates (the two blue lines on each side of the Star of David). Interestingly, Israel does not have a Constitution either. Lastly, this is one of the few states ever in which a Jew cannot sell a piece of land to a non-Jew or where you can loose not only your "right of return", but even your citizenship if you convert to another faith. These unique characteristics, among many other similar ones, are the object of the discussion. Simply put: is is moral or not to recognize the right of SUCH as State to exist and, if yes, within what borders.

This is, I submit, a basic and simple question which could be tackled rationally, just as the right to exist of, say, East Timor was.

Now, assuming such a right, we also would do well to develp arguments to present to the opponents of such a right (Hamas, Iran and others). After all, it is hardly convincing to simply say "Israel has the right to exist because fuck you!". It is even harder to say this to Palestinians whose land and homes were taken by people from all over the world whose last ancestors living there had left in 70AD. So SOME KIND OF RATIONAL argument needs to be presented, no?

VS

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

Not a Socialist but a Redneck

"Confederation of American States: no right"
Speaking as a descendant of the soldiers of the Confederacy, even without nuclear weapons, the South shall rise again.
Be nice to your Redneck neighbors.

I assume this navel gazing is just that, navel gazing. Surely you don't think Israel will rip itself apart just because you and Chomsky wants it to.

Not a Socialist but a Redneck

your ignorance never seizes to amaze me. Chomsky does not want Israel ripped apart. As for me, I am still waiting for a rational argument to help me decide.

And no, I do not think that my "navel gazing" with rip Israel apart. I think the racist and terrorist of the Israeli governments will. Let me break the news to you here (you heard it first on Debianhelp!). The IDF's defeat at the hands of a small number of Hezbollah combattants is, to paraphrase Churchill, not the beginning of the end, but the end of the beginning, for sure. The rest is just a matter of time, and its not like you or I can make a difference here. So the only question, should we rejoice or should we lament this inevitable outcome?

And for you, my patriotic and philozionist friend, there is one more question: are you willing to let YOUR country go down the tubes to try to prevent this outcome?

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

some perspective might be a good idea

Good points Vees, but to add something to your list.

Macedonia: right...., but here in Greece the government and the Nationalists say no, not with that name.

East Timor: right........, I would say that is a sort of. For years the Western "democracies including Australia did nothing, in fact defended Indonesia.

Added: Oh and in Europe, what about the Basque, Corsica, Scotland, N.Ireland just to name a few others.

anticapitalista

"Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it."

some perspective might be a good idea

Dear anticapitalista, kala Khristugena (-: if you are new calendar which I know you are not :-)

You are quite correct. My "right", "no right" really was not an expression of my personal opinion, but only what I think is the prevailing view among what the French call the "concert of nations". If I had my way, even the wholly historically fictional "Bosnia" or "Ukraine" would not get any other recognition that a good laughter... (the term "Bosniac" and "Ukrainian" always elecits something between a hysterical laughter and seering anger and disgust in me).

To tell you the truth, I am sick and tired of ALL nationalism, even those with a basis in history. You consider yourself a citizen of the world, I consider myself a citizen of the "Heavenly Jerusalem" (this is what Orthodox Christians call their Church). Either way - neither of us can have any tolerance left for all the horrors inflicted upon other fellow human beings in the name of flag and nation. I am sick a tired and disgusted with patriotism, nationalism, racism, and all the crap which makes people overlook our COMMON humanity. I know, this is quaint, but heartfelt nonetheless.

This being said, I still admire resistance to racist, nationalist or imperial agressions.

Have a super-wonderful day!

VS

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

some perspective might be a good idea

"To tell you the truth, I am sick and tired of ALL nationalism, even those with a basis in history. You consider yourself a citizen of the world, I consider myself a citizen of the "Heavenly Jerusalem" (this is what Orthodox Christians call their Church). Either way - neither of us can have any tolerance left for all the horrors inflicted upon other fellow human beings in the name of flag and nation. I am sick a tired and disgusted with patriotism, nationalism, racism, and all the crap which makes people overlook our COMMON humanity. I know, this is quaint, but heartfelt nonetheless." _ Vees

Couldn't agree with you more Vees.

"This being said, I still admire resistance to racist, nationalist or imperial agressions." - Vees.

Couldn't agree with you more Vees.

I sound like a parrot :-) lol.

Καλες Γιορτες, Καλα Χριστουγεννα (you celebrate it late as usual :-))και Καλη Χρονια from an atheist Marxist to a
......................................................
good friend.

anticapitalista

"Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it."

some perspective might be a good idea

Dear friend,

At the risk of sounding like a parrot myself, I will return you kind wishes to you also (-: even though I, as you well know, am old calendar :-) Kali khronia to you too, and may God bless and guide you in your "atheist Marxist endeavors"!

Cheers!

VS

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

Israel exists

Israel exists, and so its citizens, taxpayers, army officers and soldiers.
Everyone who even puts the question forward: has the right or not? - is a clear proponent of war. Because an existing state resists being turned to nonexistence.
Most of the folks on earth have their own states.
There is nothing wrong if the jews also have one.
Every state decides on its own who is allowed inside.
So leave Israel alone.
It exists and will hit hard anyone who will try to damage it, deprive it of the right to exist, etc.
Remember that well, if your health is of any meaning to you!

Vees, even more than US, you seem to be focused on Israel, Jews and the problems in this context. Just curious, why are you not starting discusions like: has Great Britain, France, Argentina, Russia, Japan, Iran, Irak, etc., etc.. have the right to exist? I have not included the US into this list, since I'm afraid I know your answer in advance...:)

Israel exists

Andrei, you seem to be particularly challenged with logic and reading. For instance, you seemed to have missed my comment about Bosnia or the Ukraine. Nor did you see my initial post's list of countries with various rights and no-rights, but nevermind. I suppose you just glanced at the title of the thread, and had a doubleplusgoodbellyfeel reaction to its crimethink. It is actually funny that you think that my health my suffer for asking the wrong question. LOL. You still cannot get used to living in the West I suppose :-))

Anyway - Israel does indeed exist and the issue is not this fact. Had you read the two opinons I posted initially you would understand this difference. The issue is whether this fact needs to be enshrined into some internationally recognized "sacred right to exist" or not. Even more relevantly, the issue is whether there is any logical basis for demanding that everybody publicly endorse such a right.

I notice that other than saying "it exists - be careful if you dare question its legitimacy" you do not offer one single argument in support of the need to recognize the legitimacy of that fact.

From your posts you appear quite young, my guess is 15-16 years old maybe, and your knowledge and understanding of history is still very basic. May I suggest that you look at the numerous cases in history in which specific political systems and even entire countries have been replaced by others without anyone arguing about any "right to exist"?

Lastly, how can I answer your last question. What you want to hear is that I hate Jews and Israelis. Any attempts on my part to say otherwise will only trigger more suspicions from you. I will try to offer you a logical reason and it will be up to you to decide to use common sense or not.

I am "focused" on Israel because it is the cause of all the violence in the Middle East. Because the democratically elected Hamas government is being overthrown as we speak by the joint efforts of Israel, the USA, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Because Israel seems to be the only country in the world who "right to exist" is affirmed to be sacred by many even though nobody seems to be able to acertain why this right is so sacred to begin with. Because neither the UK, France, Argentina, Russia, Japan, Iran, Iraq etc. have been established as ethno-religious states with laws which Jimmy Carter correctly identifies as apartheid-like. Because Israel is the single biggest violator of UN Resolutions AND because it is not even member of the NPT AND because it now has a large array of "weapons of mass destruction" AND because all this nonewithstanding no government out there, exceept Iran, dares to raise these issues. And lastly, because I am absolutely convinced that the US Empire is destroying itself by disreguarding its most basic strategic needs in order to serve Israel's agenda. True, the collapse of the US Empire, well under its way, will not trigger much regrets from me, but I truly wonder how flag-waving "patriots" of the Jaclon type fail to comprehend that their beloved USA is going belly up for the sake of political system which is racist and theocratic at its very core.

If Americans would be willing to alienate the entire planet (except for Tuvalu, Micronesia, Naru and the like) for the sake of the Turkmen regime or North Korea you can be quite certain that I would start a thread and ask 'why aer you guys willing to loose it all for these racist thugs'. But only Israel gets this kind of royal favor from the USA.

Ok. I tried giving you an honest and logical answer. If you are going to come back with some silly nonsense about me being a secret convert to Islam, born somewhere in the former Soviet Union, being paid by Damascus and harboring some deep seated hatred of Jews while only being able to cut-and-pasting somebody else's thoughts - don't expect any more attempts to think things through from me. You will be in much better company with Jaclon, LosAlamos and the rest of them. Also - it would be a basic courtesy of from you to first READ my post (and the rest of a thread) before 'answering' them (it would also make you look more credible).
Have a great day!
Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

nothing new under the sun

So if Israel disappears where will the Jews live? In hypothetical new (or old expanded) countries which are so in love with them? Or will they eventually leave the hostile surroundings in another exodus? Existance of a country is not based on "right", but on the fact there is a certain amount of people currently in posession of a patch of land and on their ability to maintain it under control. It was really hilarious to read somebody's "bill of rights" here, esp. when you originate from one of the countries in question. All this moral scrutinising is pointless, the only problem is that people die, but on the other side this happens all the time.

Hmm, it might even happen that 50 years ahead everybody leaves their pathetic ideologies (including us here) and start doing something constructive....

nothing new under the sun

"So if Israel disappears where will the Jews live? "

Why not in a secular Palestine, like they did for thousands of years.

anticapitalista

"Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it."

Ahmadinejad's answer to this

For all his customary buffonery, Ahmadinejad offers the only logical conclusion to this question: Jews should live in the place in which they most suffered: Europe. The Palestinians did not kill millions of them - Europeans did. So there three options:

1) Jews can choose to live in a one man one vote equal rights secular or multi-religious (probably better) Israeli-Palestinian state or confederation.

2) Jews who do not want to live there should be given the right to live in the countries most guilty of crimes against them: Western Europe. I would single out not only Germany of course, but also the UK which has such a huge responsability for the decades of terror which its policies in Palestine helped create.

3) Jews also be given the option of living in the USA. First, that would be good for the Jews themselves and for the local Americans too, since they seem to love them so much. Second, the USA would be highly popular among Arabs and Muslims for finally doing something contructive by helping to solve the problem.

I also would remind you that most Jews ALREADY live outside Israel. Furthermore, I believe that a seizable part of the Israeli population would be willing to live as good neighbors with the Palestinians, in particular if they do not have to fear for their terrorism any more. As for the racist, murderous, terrorist thugs of the Sharon/Olmert/Leiberman type, they should live in the only place appropriate for such people: jails.

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

Saddam is dead!

To all of those trying to delegitimize Israel, (i.e. destroy it).
I tried to warn you of the serious health consequences of such sort of activity.
For this I was stamped as 15-17 year old, sitting safely at the keyboard, bla, bla.
It is much more of you themselves, really like perharps 13 year olds, suggesting to destroy an entire state (a UN member) and expecting get no problems for your ass. You think what? your parents will settle the problems for you? 10 year old perharps...
If someone is intersted how old am I, I am in my 30th, I have to work and feed my family, and certainly have no time (and will not) to read the tons of shit posted here by vees and the likes in its entirety.
I just tried to reason you, and did this in a consise manner.
Yet if your intellectual level of 10 year olds does not permit making use of reasoning, perharps you can just gain smth by drawing analogies with saddam (one of the most prominent delegitimizers of Israel at the international arena).

Saddam ex US buddy

Wasn't Saddam a buddy of the 'free world' in the 80's with his war on Iran?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

or read this:
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2006/12/dont-cry-for-me-mesopotamia-no-tears.html

anticapitalista

"Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it."

Saddam is dead!

Oh well, if you are really 30 you are, I am sorry to say, a genuine idiot (for example it is truly idiotic to 'answer' without reading that which you are, presumably, trying to answer).

Sorry.

Happy 2007 anyway and good luck!

Motto: chown -R linux:GNU world
Distros: Debian, Kanotix, Frenzy, Damn Small Linux

no need to read vees' bullshit

I would be a genuine idiot, should I indeed continue reading your bullshit in its entirety. Yet, this instance is not my first encounter with you here. Previously you did your best to persuade me about your intellectual level of some envious uncompleted primary schooler. This discussion illustrated it perfectly: take for instance your perception of a warning as a threat. Being a reasonable and intelligent person, I was not trying to "answer" your posts. Don't hope to attract any thankful extra audience in adition to anticapitalista. You are not worth it - so simple it is.
And since you need so many times of the same thing to knock it into your head: here you have it:
I am not answering your posts. I do rare comments on the nature of your activity. So that everyone understands who you are and what you are doing. For this I select very few of your posts, which illustrate the matters best! Got it?

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