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It's a simple question....In the past few months that I've used Debian I've now successfully That's now 4 machines without many problems (if any) yet when I I know that I've read that laptops in general do give quite a few * Getting Etch operational from a netinstall cd So down to the "simple" question. Is this really normal on a PC-based To me I can't really fathom that so much can go wrong. The iBook PS. I'm not a member of the debian-laptop list yet I thought it might -- Bookmark/Search this post with: 
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It's a simple question....
- Problem with onboard network card is common on laptops.
When the network isn't working properly, maybe not reliable,
then many more secondary problems will appear.
Like with netinstall, Samba or even the starting gnome session.
(which might be querying for samba netgroups/computers).
Just too many linux apps assume a working network connection,
if they see an interface, and hang with the driver.
Developers just don't like to deal with rare cases, and they know
you won't sue them.
- Problems with soundcard is very common.
It boils down to a weak link causing a whole chain to fail.
> So down to the "simple" question. Is this really normal on a PC-based
> Laptop to experience such pitfalls in installing Debian?
That said, i saw many laptop with with several linux problems
at once, and not s single one without any. I think that's the price
you have to pay for running free software on 'neoclassical' hardware
of the especially fast advancing, inhomogenous, patented, and poorly
standardized sector of 'miniaturized' consumer electronics (compared
to legacy desktop PCs, which die out anyway). Hard times for linux.
As usual ;)
--
It's a simple question....
Justin Hartman wrote:
> So down to the "simple" question. Is this really normal on a PC-based
> Laptop to experience such pitfalls in installing Debian?
Yes. Laptops are notorious for having horrible compatibility with
anything other than the OS they are shipped with. This is because to
cram so much into so little space many Laptop manufacturers put in tons
of proprietary hardware then only code drivers for whatever OS they
intend to ship with it. Worse still they only ship the drivers, never
really releasing them.
--
Steve Lamb
--
It's a simple question....
On 17 Feb 2007, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Justin Hartman wrote:
> > So down to the "simple" question. Is this really normal on a PC-based
> > Laptop to experience such pitfalls in installing Debian?
>
> Yes. Laptops are notorious for having horrible compatibility with
> anything other than the OS they are shipped with. This is because to
> cram so much into so little space many Laptop manufacturers put in tons
> of proprietary hardware then only code drivers for whatever OS they
> intend to ship with it. Worse still they only ship the drivers, never
> really releasing them.
>
> --
> Steve Lamb
>
Not really what you want to hear, but try Ubuntu live; if it works, at
least you'll know that it's *possible* to get things running in Linux.
Anthony
--
Anthony Campbell -
Microsoft-free zone - Using Linux Gnu-Debian
http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews,
on-line books and sceptical articles)
--
It's a simple question....
On 2/18/07, Anthony Campbell wrote:
> Not really what you want to hear, but try Ubuntu live; if it works, at
> least you'll know that it's *possible* to get things running in Linux.
Wouldn't the Debian Live CD work as a better option?
Regards
Justin Hartman
PGP Key ID: 102CC123
--
It's a simple question....
Justin Hartman wrote:
> Wouldn't the Debian Live CD work as a better option?
Not really. Since Debian has so many different release architectures they
really don't push automatic detection and configuration as far as the splinter
distributions which focus mostly on the x86 architecture. A good example is
Wireless USBNICs. I had one that Debian could not detect and utilize. I
tried KUbuntu and it detected it, configured it and had it running with barely
a hiccup. I then knew it was possible for Debian to do it, I would just have
to do the legwork that KUbuntu's stuff did for me.
--
Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do...
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------
It's a simple question....
On 18 Feb 2007, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Justin Hartman wrote:
> > Wouldn't the Debian Live CD work as a better option?
>
> Not really. Since Debian has so many different release architectures they
> really don't push automatic detection and configuration as far as the splinter
> distributions which focus mostly on the x86 architecture. A good example is
> Wireless USBNICs. I had one that Debian could not detect and utilize. I
> tried KUbuntu and it detected it, configured it and had it running with barely
> a hiccup. I then knew it was possible for Debian to do it, I would just have
> to do the legwork that KUbuntu's stuff did for me.
>
Yes, this was why I suggested it. When I got a new Thinkpad Z61M
recently I couldn't get either sound or wirless to work. After much help
both here and elsewhere I was still no further on, but Ubuntu recognized
both immediately.
Subsequently the CD drive on the machine stopped working but that's
another story ...
Anthony
--
Anthony Campbell -
Microsoft-free zone - Using Linux Gnu-Debian
http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews,
on-line books and sceptical articles)
--
It's a simple question....
Steve Lamb wrote:
> Justin Hartman wrote:
>
>> Wouldn't the Debian Live CD work as a better option?
>>
>
> Not really. Since Debian has so many different release architectures they
> really don't push automatic detection and configuration as far as the splinter
> distributions which focus mostly on the x86 architecture. A good example is
> Wireless USBNICs. I had one that Debian could not detect and utilize. I
> tried KUbuntu and it detected it, configured it and had it running with barely
> a hiccup. I then knew it was possible for Debian to do it, I would just have
> to do the legwork that KUbuntu's stuff did for me.
>
>
I believe that Debian Live uses some live CD software developed from
some Ubuntu packages, but with hardware discovery the same as Debian
Installer (http://wiki.debian.org/DebianLive/). So Debian Live might
indeed be what you want to tell you whether Debian is going to run on
your system automagically.
--
Chris.
--
It's a simple question....
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Justin Hartman wrote:
> In the past few months that I've used Debian I've now successfully
> managed to install unstable on an Apple iBook G4, Apple mac mini (both
> PowerPC) and Intel Celeron PC. I've also installed testing on a server
> that I run which is powered by Intel P4 chips.
These are pretty known and supported... no wonder you had few problems.
> I know that I've read that laptops in general do give quite a few
> problems but in my experience the problems on the HP have been insane.
> Some of the issues I've had include:-
>
> * Getting Etch operational from a netinstall cd
What image did you used? Could you define a little bit more what
didn't worked?
> * Getting my Belkin PCI card operational (still not 100% correct and
> only connecting at 11mbps instead of the 54 it's capable of)
ndis or native driver?
> * Getting the sound card to work (only started working when I
> installed KDE - go figure)
That sounds like you missed a sound server... I suggest installing
pulseaudio, too. It allows all the different systems play well
together and doesn't have a "only X channels at a time" limit.
> * Preventing Gnome from crashing almost immediately on startup (only
> an upgrade to unstable fixed this)
That sounds like an RC bug. Could you say what messages (if any) you
got? Did failsafe GNOME sessions worked?
> * Various network related issues (lots of trial and error)
please explain/be more specific
> * Not able to print to a SMB network printer (tried everything yet
> still can't get there)
not sure what you tried, so I don't have a starting point for ideas
> So down to the "simple" question. Is this really normal on a PC-based
> Laptop to experience such pitfalls in installing Debian?
No, not *that* many issues.
> PS. I'm not a member of the debian-laptop list yet I thought it might
> prove relevant to members of the laptop mailing list.
reply-to set to -laptop list
- --
Regards,
EddyP
=============================================
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" A.Einstein
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--
It's a simple question....
On 2/18/07, Eddy Petrișor wrote:
> > * Getting Etch operational from a netinstall cd
>
> What image did you used? Could you define a little bit more what
> didn't worked?
I used the etch rc1 i386 net install image. Think it was about 135MB
big. My problem was that it wouldn't pick up any eth interfaces and
because I new I had them I had to manually insert the eth1 interface
and only once Gnome was installed could I get the wireless setup on
eth0.
> > * Getting my Belkin PCI card operational (still not 100% correct and
> > only connecting at 11mbps instead of the 54 it's capable of)
>
> ndis or native driver?
Well this is a little confusing to me. Intially I was using the bcm43
driver which shipped with Sid and this worked. My problem as mentioned
was the 11mbps connection vs 54. Then I tried ndiswrapper to install
the windows driver which was on the install CD. It seems to be
installed but it still doesn't actually increase my connection speed
and remains at 11mbps.
> > * Preventing Gnome from crashing almost immediately on startup (only
> > an upgrade to unstable fixed this)
>
> That sounds like an RC bug. Could you say what messages (if any) you
> got? Did failsafe GNOME sessions worked?
Gnome failsafe did work. I can't remember any messages now but what I
did experience was a hang almost immediately once Gnome started up. I
had a similar issue once on my iBook and found beagled to be the
problem so I removed this from my system. Seemed to work but still had
a lot of problems starting up. I then upgraded to Sid from Etch and
never had another problem.
> > * Various network related issues (lots of trial and error)
>
> please explain/be more specific
Well I had a lot of problems trying to connect to windows servers as
well as my office wifi network. When I spoke of lots of trial and
error what I meant was that I had to try various different connection
options in connecting to the wifi network.
> > * Not able to print to a SMB network printer (tried everything yet
> > still can't get there)
>
> not sure what you tried, so I don't have a starting point for ideas
The printer settings option in Gnome refused to pickup my network
printer for whatever reason. I did a little searching and found this
information [1] which I used to setup the printer. I now have the
printer setup and the printer can see me when I spool jobs to it but
for some weird reason print jobs never come out. The printer spool
hangs and I have to manually cancel the print job at the printer
itself.
[1] http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-mini/Debian-and-Windows-Shared-Printing.html#printing_to_windows
--
Regards
Justin Hartman
PGP Key ID: 102CC123
It's a simple question....
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
(I am forwarding this to Debain Boot since these seem to be
installation issues).
Justin Hartman wrote:
> On 2/18/07, Eddy Petrișor wrote:
>> > * Getting Etch operational from a netinstall cd
>>
>> What image did you used? Could you define a little bit more what
>> didn't worked?
>
> I used the etch rc1 i386 net install image. Think it was about 135MB
> big. My problem was that it wouldn't pick up any eth interfaces and
> because I new I had them I had to manually insert the eth1 interface
> and only once Gnome was installed could I get the wireless setup on
> eth0.
>
>> > * Getting my Belkin PCI card operational (still not 100% correct and
>> > only connecting at 11mbps instead of the 54 it's capable of)
>>
>> ndis or native driver?
>
> Well this is a little confusing to me. Intially I was using the bcm43
> driver which shipped with Sid and this worked. My problem as mentioned
> was the 11mbps connection vs 54. Then I tried ndiswrapper to install
> the windows driver which was on the install CD. It seems to be
> installed but it still doesn't actually increase my connection speed
> and remains at 11mbps.
>
>> > * Preventing Gnome from crashing almost immediately on startup (only
>> > an upgrade to unstable fixed this)
>>
>> That sounds like an RC bug. Could you say what messages (if any) you
>> got? Did failsafe GNOME sessions worked?
>
> Gnome failsafe did work. I can't remember any messages now but what I
> did experience was a hang almost immediately once Gnome started up. I
> had a similar issue once on my iBook and found beagled to be the
> problem so I removed this from my system. Seemed to work but still had
> a lot of problems starting up. I then upgraded to Sid from Etch and
> never had another problem.
>
>> > * Various network related issues (lots of trial and error)
>>
>> please explain/be more specific
>
> Well I had a lot of problems trying to connect to windows servers as
> well as my office wifi network. When I spoke of lots of trial and
> error what I meant was that I had to try various different connection
> options in connecting to the wifi network.
>
>> > * Not able to print to a SMB network printer (tried everything yet
>> > still can't get there)
>>
>> not sure what you tried, so I don't have a starting point for ideas
>
> The printer settings option in Gnome refused to pickup my network
> printer for whatever reason. I did a little searching and found this
> information [1] which I used to setup the printer. I now have the
> printer setup and the printer can see me when I spool jobs to it but
> for some weird reason print jobs never come out. The printer spool
> hangs and I have to manually cancel the print job at the printer
> itself.
>
> [1]
> http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-mini/Debian-and-Windows-Shared-Printing.html#printing_to_windows
>
- --
Regards,
EddyP
=============================================
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" A.Einstein
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--
It's a simple question....
Justin Hartman wrote:
> So down to the "simple" question. Is this really normal on a PC-based
> Laptop to experience such pitfalls in installing Debian?
With the IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads, not usually. With Dell, HP, Acer, etc, yes,
the experience is typical. This is a result of most laptop vendors not
documenting their hardware properly, or inability or unwillingness to share
the documentation with the people who bought the product or Linux
developers. Voting with your money is important when it comes to
compatability on Linux.
> To me I can't really fathom that so much can go wrong. The iBook
> worked perfectly from the get go yet this laptop seems riddled with
> problems.
The iBook is a relatively standardized platform compared to the laptop
Lintel world, unfortunately.
--
It's a simple question....
Paul Johnson wrote:
> Voting with your money is important when it comes to
> compatability on Linux.
>
I'd be all for getting something other than a Dell, but they were the
only ones I could find that offered a laptop with a screen resolution
meeting or exceeding 1600x1200. Does anybody know of any other, more
Linux-compatible, laptops with that kind of resolution?
- Joe
It's a simple question....
Joe Emenaker wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
>> Voting with your money is important when it comes to
>> compatability on Linux.
>>
> I'd be all for getting something other than a Dell, but they were the
> only ones I could find that offered a laptop with a screen resolution
> meeting or exceeding 1600x1200. Does anybody know of any other, more
> Linux-compatible, laptops with that kind of resolution?
Thinkpads.
[Take the period literal 8-) ]
As mentioned in another post, there is good linux documentation about
them. Before purchase, you should visit www.thinkwiki.org to see what
works and how it works on linux and how others have configured their
systems.
My 0.02.
Johannes
--
It's a simple question....
Joe Emenaker wrote:
>> Paul Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> Voting with your money is important when it comes to
>>> compatability on Linux.
>>>
>>>
>> I'd be all for getting something other than a Dell, but they were the
>> only ones I could find that offered a laptop with a screen resolution
>> meeting or exceeding 1600x1200. Does anybody know of any other, more
>> Linux-compatible, laptops with that kind of resolution?
>>
>
> Thinkpads.
>
> [Take the period literal 8-) ]
>
> As mentioned in another post, there is good linux documentation about
> them. Before purchase, you should visit www.thinkwiki.org to see what
> works and how it works on linux and how others have configured their
> systems.
>
> My 0.02.
>
> Johannes
>
>
>
I would have to second the thinkpad option. I am running etch on a t42
with 1600x1200 resolution and I couldn't be happier. I do have a friend
who had some difficulty with getting etch to run on his t60p, mostly
because of his video card (ati), but he got that and everything else
working.
thinwiki.org is a life saver if you need help firing up Linux on a thinkpad.
Lance
--
It's a simple question....
* Lance Leishman [2007 Feb 22 07:09 -0600]:
> Joe Emenaker wrote:
> >>Paul Johnson wrote:
> >>
> >>>Voting with your money is important when it comes to
> >>>compatability on Linux.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I'd be all for getting something other than a Dell, but they were the
> >>only ones I could find that offered a laptop with a screen resolution
> >>meeting or exceeding 1600x1200. Does anybody know of any other, more
> >>Linux-compatible, laptops with that kind of resolution?
> >>
> >
> >Thinkpads.
> >
> >[Take the period literal 8-) ]
> >
> >As mentioned in another post, there is good linux documentation about
> >them. Before purchase, you should visit www.thinkwiki.org to see what
> >works and how it works on linux and how others have configured their
> >systems.
> >
> >My 0.02.
> >
> >Johannes
> >
> >
> >
> I would have to second the thinkpad option. I am running etch on a t42
> with 1600x1200 resolution and I couldn't be happier. I do have a friend
> who had some difficulty with getting etch to run on his t60p, mostly
> because of his video card (ati), but he got that and everything else
> working.
>
> thinwiki.org is a life saver if you need help firing up Linux on a thinkpad.
I'll chime in and say that if one is looking to spend a bit less money,
the T23 is a good option. The built-in modem is a bit problematic as
it is the Lucent chipset and requires the proprietary driver. For
later kernels there is the martian modem project which moves the
proprietary blob to user space and thus does not taint the kernel.
I've had my T23 for two years after buying it used off of eBay. So
far, no complaints.
- Nate >>
--
Wireless | Amateur Radio Station N0NB | Successfully Microsoft
Amateur radio exams; ham radio; Linux info @ | free since January 1998.
http://www.qsl.net/n0nb/ | "Debian, the choice of
My Kawasaki KZ-650 SR @ | a GNU generation!"
http://www.networksplus.net/n0nb/ | http://www.debian.org
--
It's a simple question....
Paul Johnson wrote:
> Voting with your money is important when it comes to
> compatability on Linux.
>
I'd be all for getting something other than a Dell, but they were the
only ones I could find that offered a laptop with a screen resolution
meeting or exceeding 1600x1200. Does anybody know of any other, more
Linux-compatible, laptops with that kind of resolution?
- Joe
It's a simple question....
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:49:48 -0800
Paul Johnson wrote:
> Justin Hartman wrote:
>
> > So down to the "simple" question. Is this really normal on a PC-based
> > Laptop to experience such pitfalls in installing Debian?
>
> With the IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads, not usually. With Dell, HP, Acer, etc, yes,
> the experience is typical. This is a result of most laptop vendors not
> documenting their hardware properly, or inability or unwillingness to share
> the documentation with the people who bought the product or Linux
> developers. Voting with your money is important when it comes to
> compatability on Linux.
I recently installed Sid on an Acer Aspire AS3690 (lowest end of the
Aspire line), and I was actually impressed with how smoothly the whole
thing went. Only one real problem (buggy hardware / software involving
the rtc - this is aparently a common problem [0]). I don't have
suspend / hibernate working properly yet, but I haven't tryed very
hard. Even the wireless [Broadcom BCM4318 AirForce One] worked almost
out of the box, one just needs non-free firmware, which can be
installed automatically with the 'bcm43-fwcutter' package.
Incidentally, the 60GB HDD came with 3 partitions: ~27GB with Windows
(several GB occupied by the OS, the remainder empty (virtually *no*
silly trial apps or other worthless stuff - wow!), ~27GB empty, and ~5
for some sort of system restore. I just left the windows and restore
partitions alone and deleted the empty one, replacing it with a half
dozen more for linux. Very convenient.
Celejar
[0] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=277298 and
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.15/+bug/43661
--
It's a simple question....
Justin Hartman wrote:
> So down to the "simple" question. Is this really normal on a PC-based
> Laptop to experience such pitfalls in installing Debian?
With the IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads, not usually. With Dell, HP, Acer, etc, yes,
the experience is typical. This is a result of most laptop vendors not
documenting their hardware properly, or inability or unwillingness to share
the documentation with the people who bought the product or Linux
developers. Voting with your money is important when it comes to
compatability on Linux.
> To me I can't really fathom that so much can go wrong. The iBook
> worked perfectly from the get go yet this laptop seems riddled with
> problems.
The iBook is a relatively standardized platform compared to the laptop
Lintel world, unfortunately.
--