Debian User List

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John C wrote:
>
>
> Greg Folkert wrote:
>> On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 20:45 -0500, John C wrote:
>>> Greg Folkert wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 13:45 -0700, Tyler MacDonald wrote:
>>>>> Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
>>>>>> Actually, I would prefer if [OT] messages would be kept [OOTL]
>>>>>> (out of this list)
>>>>> I said this once before and got shot down, but here it is again:
>>>>>
>>>>> If this list is supposed to be for idle chit-chat among the debian
>>>>> community, then we really have no mailing list specifically for
>>>>> people to
>>>>> talk about debian, or get help about debian. We should have at
>>>>> least another
>>>>> list, probably "debian-help".
>>>> Okay, so why would *I* subscribe to that list?
>>>>
>>> A better question would be.. Why would those who are tired of the OT
>>> bull sessions want you to?
>>>
>>> It would probably be a lot better for the new users to help
>>> themselves than to be pawns for your ego. Sure they'll make mistakes,
>>> but I suspect they'll learn more in the long run.
>>
>> Piss-off. I don't do it for ego, but it seems you do.
>
>
> Actually, that was a little harsher than I meant it to be Greg. You are
> not the worst offender. However, if you wonder where the ego comment
> came from, please notice the highlighted *I* in your statement quoted
> below. Then ask yourself why anyone would highlight a pronoun when
> talking about themselves?
>
> "Okay, so why would *I* subscribe to that list?"
>
> ----------------------------
> ego n
> 1: an inflated feeling of pride in your superiority to others
> [syn: {egotism}, {self-importance}]
> 2: your consciousness of your own identity [syn: {self}]
> 3: (psychoanalysis) the conscious mind
> -----------------------------
>
>
> As for the Debian User list, there is little value in monitoring it
> anymore. In the days of "Bo" and "Hamm" it was by far the most
> technically valuable and helpful list on the net, but that day has
> passed. It now consists of much more self important bullshit than debian
> related discussion. As a result, in the last few months I've learned
> more about the politics, religion and sex life of other users than I
> ever wanted to know.
>
> Since my only reason for remaining on the list all these years was
> simply to keep abreast of the progress of the Debian community and since
> that community seems to be morphing into something less than it could
> be, I've decided to unsubscribe.
>
> But before doing so, I just wanted to say "thank you" to all who
> contributed to my knowledge of Debian and of Linux over the years either
> directly by helping me with a problem or indirectly by helping other
> users with their problems.
>
> Thanks, and that thanks includes several of the OT posters.

Well, goodbye (if you ever see this John)

Having been only around for the last month or so, I would disagree about
the amount of knowledge on this list. But what is news to me is old hat
to people like you who have used Debian for years and read the
documentation thoroughly.

I expect that when Etch releases, this list will be flooded with people
requesting help, and while I might not know the answers to everything, I
might actually be able to help people and by doing so be giving
something to the community. So far I think I have helped a total of 3
people and gotten 2 thank you messages for that.

It might be that some of my messages actually generate more traffic and
or cause controversy. While I don't have that intention, and am not a
troll, I cannot help my opinions. They are exactly that. My opinions.

I am looking forward to being able to provide help to new users and give
thanks to the people who have directly or indirectly helped me. I am
thankful that I found this list and although I am not real happy about
the large amount of off-topic discussion, I do not regret subscribing to
this list, nor do I plan on unsubscribing.

Joe

- --
Registerd Linux user #443289 at http://counter.li.org/
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On Sun, 2007-04-01 at 12:06 -0500, John C wrote:
> Since my only reason for remaining on the list all these years
> was simply to keep abreast of the progress of the Debian
> community and since that community seems to be morphing into
> something less than it could be, I've decided to unsubscribe.

Have fun. Getting real help from source other than this list ONCE Etch
goes Stable, is going to be cumbersome at best. There are other places,
but none that have the people here that CAN answer the questions the
first time or timely enough.

It is morphing, but you see we are all "itchy for Etch" waiting, very
little real question concerning Sarge and will continue to fade away.
Etch, we are just starting to see questions for Etch. Come April 7th or
9th (which ever you think the announcement meant) there will be a
completely different kind of traffic on this list. Few if any really
long OT threads, mostly real question and answer threads.

If you have been on this list as long as you say you have been, I am
surprised at you blase attitude. You seem to have missed that this
current environment of waiting is a recurring artifact of "right before
release". Tell me straight, that you have not noticed this before.

I have. We can go back to weeks before each of the releases and see how
much OT chit-chat there is... and just as much complaining about it,
calls for newbie lists, calls for other lists for OT stuff, calls for a
*PURE* help only list. If you can't see it... well, I bid you farewell.
--
greg,

I think it's a mistake to ever look for hope outside of one's self. One
day the house smells of fresh bread, the next of smoke and blood. One
day you faint because the gardener cuts his finger off, within a week
you're climbing over corpses of children bombed in a subway. What hope
can there be if that is so? I tried to die near the end of the war. The
same dream returned each night until I dared not to go to sleep and grew
quite ill. I dreamed I had a child, and even in the dream I saw it was
my life, and it was an idiot, and I ran away. But it always crept onto
my lap again, clutched at my clothes. Until I thought, if I could kiss
it, whatever in it was my own, perhaps I could sleep. And I bent to its
broken face, and it was horrible...but I kissed it. I think one must
finally take one's life in one's arms.

Arthur Miller
from the play After the Fall

--

On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 01:06:31PM EDT, John C wrote:
>
>
> Greg Folkert wrote:
> >On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 20:45 -0500, John C wrote:
> >>Greg Folkert wrote:
> >>>On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 13:45 -0700, Tyler MacDonald wrote:
> >>>>Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
> >>>>>Actually, I would prefer if [OT] messages would be kept [OOTL]
> >>>>>(out of this list)
> >>>>I said this once before and got shot down, but here it is again:
> >>>>
> >>>>If this list is supposed to be for idle chit-chat among the debian
> >>>>community, then we really have no mailing list specifically for people
> >>>>to
> >>>>talk about debian, or get help about debian. We should have at least
> >>>>another
> >>>>list, probably "debian-help".
> >>>Okay, so why would *I* subscribe to that list?
> >>>
> >>A better question would be.. Why would those who are tired of the
> >>OT bull sessions want you to?
> >>
> >>It would probably be a lot better for the new users to help
> >>themselves than to be pawns for your ego. Sure they'll make
> >>mistakes, but I suspect they'll learn more in the long run.
> >
> >Piss-off. I don't do it for ego, but it seems you do.
>
>
> Actually, that was a little harsher than I meant it to be Greg.
> You are not the worst offender. However, if you wonder where the
> ego comment came from, please notice the highlighted *I* in your
> statement quoted below. Then ask yourself why anyone would
> highlight a pronoun when talking about themselves?
>
> "Okay, so why would *I* subscribe to that list?"

Er .. Such highlighting of a word is by convention just an attempt to
convey in writing the meaning carried by stressing one particular word
in the spoken form of the English language.

Compare:

_I_ did it vs. I _did_ it
_I_ know vs. I _know_

or ..

it was in _my_ house
it _was_ in my house
it was in my _house_

All convey a different meaning.

But you probably know that ..

> ----------------------------
> ego n
> 1: an inflated feeling of pride in your superiority to others
> [syn: {egotism}, {self-importance}]
> 2: your consciousness of your own identity [syn: {self}]
> 3: (psychoanalysis) the conscious mind
> -----------------------------

> As for the Debian User list, there is little value in monitoring
> it anymore. In the days of "Bo" and "Hamm" it was by far the most
> technically valuable and helpful list on the net, but that day
> has passed. It now consists of much more self important bullshit
> than debian related discussion. As a result, in the last few
> months I've learned more about the politics, religion and sex
> life of other users than I ever wanted to know.
>
> Since my only reason for remaining on the list all these years
> was simply to keep abreast of the progress of the Debian
> community and since that community seems to be morphing into
> something less than it could be, I've decided to unsubscribe.

Sounds like you are suffering from a bad case of "superiority to
others" and "self-importance" yourself by the look of it.

Why did you bother telling us all this?

> But before doing so, I just wanted to say "thank you" to all who
> contributed to my knowledge of Debian and of Linux over the years
> either directly by helping me with a problem or indirectly by
> helping other users with their problems.
>
> Thanks, and that thanks includes several of the OT posters.

Well, I hope you change your mind .. you sound more like a civilized
kinda a guy just having a bad day.

> John

Thanks,
cga

--

On Mon, Apr 02, 2007 at 12:04:48AM +0000, s. keeling wrote:
> Greg Folkert :
> > On Sun, 2007-04-01 at 14:04 -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> > > Greg Folkert wrote:
> > > > I wouldn't. I am itching for Etch to go stable so I can really help the
> > > > brunt that will come. The brunt of questions that will FINALLY be there.
> > > > All of this crap is filler for the stuff we have coming very soon.
> > >
> > > Current levels of posts on forums.debian.net suggest otherwise. (More
> > > questions being asked there than here; generally fewer responses
> > > though.) So do popcon graphs which show a continuing increase in the
> > > number of etch installations.
> >
> > Okay. So I guess the DU ML should just close up shop and be done with
> > it.
>
> Nah, the kids these days think MLs are old hat and frumpy compared to
> web forums. You can't point and click on anything in slrn or mutt.
> The best they can do is googling with "site:lists.debian.org". Maybe
> with enough of that, they'll begin to wonder what that ML stuff is all
> about, since all the useful answers they get seem to come from there.
>

Honestly I find mailing lists a lot more usable than forums. I am a
frequenter at forums.debian.net and as nice as having a flashy looking
forum is, I prefer to have all of my messages saved to my hard drive
for archival purposes (I'm one of those people who hates throwing
anything out).

Oh, and I'm only saying this because I'm one of those "kids" you speak
of. Seventeen here, it should be obvious anyway because my English
isn't as good as most of the people on this mailing list (When I
re-read my messages sometimes even I don't understand what I was
trying to say)

> > > Greg Folkert wrote:
> > > > I wouldn't. I am itching for Etch to go stable so I can really help
> > > > the brunt that will come. The brunt of questions that will FINALLY
> > > > be there. All of this crap is filler for the stuff we have coming
> > > > very soon.

> > On Sun, 2007-04-01 at 14:04 -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> > > Current levels of posts on forums.debian.net suggest otherwise. (More
> > > questions being asked there than here; generally fewer responses
> > > though.)

I'd say all people who are able to respond are flaming here, or already
unsubscribed theirselves off. But they usually won't start reading forums...

> > > So do popcon graphs which show a continuing increase in the
> > > number of etch installations.

> Greg Folkert :
> > Okay. So I guess the DU ML should just close up shop and be done with
> > it.

On 02.04.07 00:04, s. keeling wrote:
> Nah, the kids these days think MLs are old hat and frumpy compared to
> web forums. You can't point and click on anything in slrn or mutt.
> The best they can do is googling with "site:lists.debian.org". Maybe
> with enough of that, they'll begin to wonder what that ML stuff is all
> about, since all the useful answers they get seem to come from there.

I'd prefer unique place for such discussions with mailing list/newsgroup/web
forum access. The first two are already done through gmane afaik.
I'm not sure if someone hasn't build up web forum over this list...
--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
- Have you got anything without Spam in it?
- Well, there's Spam egg sausage and Spam, that's not got much Spam in it.

--

s. keeling wrote in Article
posted to gmane.linux.debian.user:

> Greg Folkert :
>> On Sun, 2007-04-01 at 14:04 -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
>> > Greg Folkert wrote:
>> > > I wouldn't. I am itching for Etch to go stable so I can really help
>> > > the brunt that will come. The brunt of questions that will FINALLY be
>> > > there. All of this crap is filler for the stuff we have coming very
>> > > soon.
>> >
>> > Current levels of posts on forums.debian.net suggest otherwise. (More
>> > questions being asked there than here; generally fewer responses
>> > though.) So do popcon graphs which show a continuing increase in the
>> > number of etch installations.
>>
>> Okay. So I guess the DU ML should just close up shop and be done with
>> it.
>
> Nah, the kids these days think MLs are old hat and frumpy compared to
> web forums.

No, kids are lazy and don't want to learn how to research, or do the
research themselves.

> You can't point and click on anything in slrn or mutt.

Isn't that why there's icedove, sylpheed, kmail...?

--
Paul Johnson
Email and IM (XMPP & Google Talk):

--